MOM 2.0 Upload

Details about file formats, structure and contents in the original Master of Magic
zitro
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Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:05 am

Re: MOM 2.0 Upload

Post by zitro » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:43 am

When do you lose? at the beginning?

I think I might try at impossible in this way, might be the best non-11 pick mage?

8 sorcery, sorcery mastery, arch mage, and either conjurer or alchemy. playing with gnolls. Early great start with phantom warrior spamming until I get to nagas. Cast Windmastery and try to conquer towns near the coasts. Use warships for annoyance.

Darkpriest667
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Re: MOM 2.0 Upload

Post by Darkpriest667 » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:28 pm

you guys are beating the game in cheesy ways...


Frankly you made some of the races much too powerful and left others with the same disadvantages they had before..


Myrran takes 3 picks... Why does every race on myrror now have a MAJOR disadvantage....


for 3 picks it should be a damned good advantage to be myrran... It was not in 1.31 and now its more of a disadvantage..


I played 2 games.. 8 chaos books both as high men... i was defeated within 100 turns on hard... chaos mastery archmage as picks... there was no way i was going to take my fav choice of dark elves with all the disadvantages you put on them.. weakening the only 2 units that made them worth having...

Im going back to 1.31 i see no big advantage for my playing style... if you really want to balance the game make death nature and chaos more powerful and weaken life and sorcery.. both of which are entirely too powerful..

Challenge yourselves folks.. I can take 8 sorcery , sorcery master arch mage and halfing and beat the game 100% of the time.. Thats an easy out.. Try playing one of the myrran races with nature or chaos and see how much further you get..

Admittedly this is my first time playing the game in almost a decade... But after 6 games of 1.31 and 2 games of this.. Ill stick with 1.31

not to be overcritical but I think MOMIE is probably a better upgrade than this 2.0

zitro
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:05 am

Re: MOM 2.0 Upload

Post by zitro » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:09 pm

Darkpriest667 wrote:you guys are beating the game in cheesy ways...


Frankly you made some of the races much too powerful and left others with the same disadvantages they had before..

Actually, gnolls/klackons/orcs and various of the weak races got improved significantly. Which races are now too powerful? you said you were playing halfling, that race got weakened since they grow slowly now and their units have higher costs

Myrran takes 3 picks... Why does every race on myrror now have a MAJOR disadvantage....

It always cost 3 picks.

for 3 picks it should be a damned good advantage to be myrran... It was not in 1.31 and now its more of a disadvantage..

Dark elves and dwarves are full of bonuses and incredibly powerful yet not that expensive units. Dwarves' golems are incredibly powerful. Even dark elves spearmen have +2 to hit on elite, which probably makes 1 spearman equivalent to 3 sprites. Beastmen is much superior to other fast-growing races in the normal plane. Trolls are still great, with the best units improved a lot. If you play dwarves/dark elves, I can't see myrran being a waste

I played 2 games.. 8 chaos books both as high men... i was defeated within 100 turns on hard... chaos mastery archmage as picks...

Did you use hell hounds? high men is not a good race in the beginning of the game, relying on pikemen/priests.

there was no way i was going to take my fav choice of dark elves with all the disadvantages you put on them.. weakening the only 2 units that made them worth having...

wait, darkelves weakened? they got improved in so many ways, and I cannot think of a new weakness.
_regular units are about 60% the original cost
_every unit has +1 to hit more than before (it's a HUGE bonus, increasing damage around 35-70%)
_The invisible units are much stronger
_Warlocks/priests got a tad weakened on range, but the +1 to hit actually makes them a bit stronger overall
_They can build all buildings in the game
_Nightmares are much stronger, with the +1 to hit, planar travel, and a huge amount of shields. They might be even better than griffins, which I considered the best unit in the game before this mod.
_the last poster felt darkelves were now a bit overpowered instead.


Im going back to 1.31 i see no big advantage for my playing style... if you really want to balance the game make death nature and chaos more powerful and weaken life and sorcery.. both of which are entirely too powerful..

well, life got seriously weakened, I can't imagine it being weakened even more. sorcery ... mmm, maybe you make a point, but the creatures are now very expensive now and you have no early summons ... Chaos is now great, I can't think of it being more powerful than this as almost all summons are cheaper/stronger, warp lighting is cheaper, and most early spells improved. Death weak? maybe you're not using it right. I'm wrecking havoc with shadow demons and "summon demon" is extremely effective due to weapon immunity. Skeletons with no upkeep are great for defense. Leave 6 of them in every town.

Challenge yourselves folks.. I can take 8 sorcery , sorcery master arch mage and halfing and beat the game 100% of the time.. Thats an easy out.. Try playing one of the myrran races with nature or chaos and see how much further you get..

I did the supposedly challenging things. Yeah, Beastmen with nature was challenging because I started badly. Actually, Chaos magic was my easiest game so far.

Admittedly this is my first time playing the game in almost a decade... But after 6 games of 1.31 and 2 games of this.. Ill stick with 1.31

not to be overcritical but I think MOMIE is probably a better upgrade than this 2.0

But of course, noone's stopping you. If you feel 1.31 is better, then stick to that one. :) I just felt I needed to clarify some things, like how dark elves are much stronger than before.
Last edited by zitro on Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Nehan
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Re: MOM 2.0 Upload

Post by Nehan » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:59 pm

well, I've just played beastmen on hard, with 4Ch/1N and myrran (obviously), chaos mastery and some retort i don't remember now. hell hounds are great for a start, low cost+hardhitting, fire elementals also rule against units (immolation); with better balanced heroes you don't need to be choosy and can take almost every one for a nice time (still, Brax is greatly disadvantaged).
Dark elves are so powerful now that I'd rather have them weakened :o
I've never played life in my life (seriously!), so I can't really say anything about its rebalance, but death, chaos and sorcery are about the same level (sorcery being the most powerful in the long run)
Warsaw isn't a kind of a battle saw. It's the capital of Poland.

Aureus
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Re: MOM 2.0 Upload

Post by Aureus » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:01 am

Glad some of you are enjoying it. I can't imagine playing 1.31 myself, for the spell corrections alone, but I suppose I'm a little biased ;)

Darkpriest667: I don't think you played the version I play with because your comments don't make any sense.

As to dark elves, what makes them so much better than High Elves? The +1 range strike isn't all that powerful, and night blades have been bumped to armorer's guild (though they are now stronger). In any case, for 3 picks, you better get some serious payoff. Myrran is rich with resources, so that's probably worth at least 1 or 2 picks on it's own (but remember, the AI are also stronger!). Maybe boosting them to 200 percent of normal is reasonable.. I don't know. Trolls and Draconians are pretty tough.. right now, I like the balance.

zitro
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Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:05 am

Re: MOM 2.0 Upload

Post by zitro » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:29 am

Yeah, you fulfilled the potential the game had. This is much more balanced as long as I don't play 11-book games. There are also many less errors and all the new spells are interesting. I may feel that nature is a bit weaker and sorcery is a bit stronger, but I'd have to play each more often to see if that's true.
Aureus wrote:Glad some of you are enjoying it. I can't imagine playing 1.31 myself, for the spell corrections alone, but I suppose I'm a little biased ;)

As to dark elves, what makes them so much better than High Elves? The +1 range strike isn't all that powerful, and night blades have been bumped to armorer's guild (though they are now stronger). In any case, for 3 picks, you better get some serious payoff. Myrran is rich with resources, so that's probably worth at least 1 or 2 picks on it's own (but remember, the AI are also stronger!). Maybe boosting them to 200 percent of normal is reasonable.. I don't know. Trolls and Draconians are pretty tough.. right now, I like the balance.

_the range strikes are about as powerful as shaman shots, but with cheaper units which can fight hand-to-hand. This brings great defense early in the game against raiders.
_lots of mana, which is useful in the beginning.
_warlocks are probably the best units in the game when it comes to lairs and volcanoes. They are pretty much Demon Lord's worst nightmare.
_Nightmares, along with Golems and wyverns, might be overall the best unit in the game. They fight very well, fly quickly, change planes, shoot moderately powerful magic, and are very tough to kill. Great for raiding cities.

but I don't think they're overpowered against other myrran races. The other ones (especially dwarves) can be just as good sometimes, if not better.


btw, Sorcery mastery + channeler + conjurer + archmage with lizardmen is proving to be a great combo (I'm playing impossible, and surviving). Early phantom warrior start helps, nagas with 3-upkeep is insanely useful (nagas are good in groups), javelineers resist psionic blasts due to high hp, and turtles are decent fighters. I also got air elemental early, which owns the halflings.

Darkpriest667
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Re: MOM 2.0 Upload

Post by Darkpriest667 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:22 am

my newest game.. which was on hard..


again 8 chaos and myrran this time.. i chose the dark elves just to prove my point..

after taking the 3 closest cities all dwarven... I meet another myrran mage... tauroc.... i never found out what race his people were as he never put a city near me and all the armies i saw were ghouls and skeletons.... the next turn he declares war.. the turn after that i meet ssla who turns around and declares war.. im now at war with 2 myrran opponents who have vastly superior numbers... i was already maxed for armies and declared the game dead... i did manage to destroy 4 incoming armies that were 9 units each... but with attacks coming from 2 fronts and my main army destroyed there was no chance to revive the game...

WHY is myrran a DIS advantage... - harder opponents for 1.. anyone else on myrror is going to be more powerful than you on hard... its as simple as that... all the other races have mega advantages as well so your advantage does you hell all good until you get to the regular plane.. while you are still on myrror its not an advantage... it makes you even with the rest of the cities...

Why didnt i have golems or nightmares or warlocks.. well when you are 50 turns into a game on hard having to pump out spearmen and swordsman from dwarven cities you tend to not have very much time to build infrastructure...

Also maybe im the only person thats ever noticed this but on the regular plane there are plenty of areas to make pop 20 pop 18 cities... when im on myrror im lucky to find 1 or 2 areas with a cap over 12....

Maybe my strategy sucks ill give it that.. however... as a 12 year old boy now 27 i used to kick the crap out of this game.. and now im struggling...

Aureus
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Re: MOM 2.0 Upload

Post by Aureus » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:34 am

The Myrran races are "easier" in that they give more ready access to things a human player can really exploit: invisibility (Night Blades), Flight (Draconian, Manticores), and Regeneration (Trolls). It's arguable, but a human player might also do a better job handling all the special ore deposits. But you are right: if you play large land mass on hard or impossible, having 2 (or 3!) neighboring wizards will be very tough because all the wizards start out much stronger than you (an effect amplified by Myrran). IIRC if you choose Myrran you'll never be the only one down there..

However, if you play an Arcanus race you'll still have a similar challenge -- on large land mass, the AI will be very aggressive and it takes a lot of experience to defeat them. But you'll have 3 other spell ranks or picks to use to your advantage. At the impossible level -- on both worlds -- the key is to either raid the AI(s) quickly (when their advantage is relatively less strong) or to build mid-level units and outmaneuver the AI. There are a lot of tricks you need to know. But you are right: most of the fancy end units are not feasible in most hard/impossible games until you've already "won" the game.

I think you are confusing MOM 1.31 (and subsequently 2.0) with MOM 1.3. I believe the latter version was much easier to play. In 1.31, the impossible game became, well, "impossible" for those not highly skilled at the game (or not using 11-book strategies).

I primarily set out to fix the spells in the game, and balance the races. If you choose Myrran, all of them are good and interesting to play with. I don't think there are just one or two "great" races. Likewise, most of the Arcanus races should be more competitive with one another. I'm hopeful in that respect, 2.0 succeeds. If it needs tweaking, I'm more than willing to change things up.

Darkpriest667
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Re: MOM 2.0 Upload

Post by Darkpriest667 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:54 pm

odds are i just suck more than i used to ;-) but yes i always play with large land masses..

One thing i never liked about master of magic (one of my few few complaints of the game) was the world was always too damned small.. on a large land mass 10 or 20 turns and the next wiz knows you or knows where you are.. one thing i really like about IME MOM is that you can change the size of the world.. im extremely excited of playing on a superhuge world where i have 100 turns or more to develop my cities and then go after the enemy


All in all you did do a great job balancing out chaos... which is what i primarily play acid fog is a great attack spell and boosting the fire elemental (the weakest of the elementals in my opinion) was a great thing.. I havent made it much farther in the game from getting my ass handed to me by the comps... that 2 wizards vs me in myrror really sucked.. Ill try again and hopefully progress farther.... with chaos once you get flame strike you can total any army practically (except paladins)

zitro
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Re: MOM 2.0 Upload

Post by zitro » Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:49 am

Aureus wrote:I'm hopeful in that respect, 2.0 succeeds. If it needs tweaking, I'm more than willing to change things up.
_I feel that Nature is missing something at the beginning, I really feel like those war bears (probably the only summons without tohit bonuses) could be cheaper. Supposedly, this is the magic of cheap/strong creatures and for me, those warbears are incredibly weak for their cost.

_I just can't find draconians good. Explain what makes them good, because I might just not understand the race.

_For some reason, vertigo NEVER works. I've tried it so many times, including against low-resistance standard units, and it never worked. When i said I felt it was far too cheap, I was thinking that it was a spell that was likely to work. Is the coding alright?


EDIT: I almost beat the 2nd, strong, sorcery-based mage with 20,000+mana and 200+skill and got excellent spells from him. Maybe, I could beat it in impossible.

EDIT2: I beat it in impossible on my first try! (without 11-book strategy, with lizardmen)

zitro
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Re: MOM 2.0 Upload

Post by zitro » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:48 am

These seem to be good strategies from me and my dad:

_6 life books, myrran, warlord, Trolls/Dwarves
_9 life books, warlord, high elves/nomad
_7 nature books, nature mastery, channeler, conjurer
_6 sorcery books, archmage, channeler, conjurer, sorcery mastery (how I beat impossible)
_9 chaos books, archmage, chaos mastery.
_8 death books, myrran, dark elves
_1 nature, 2 chaos, 2 life, 2 or 3 sorcery, node mastery, warlord, alchemy (if 2 sorcery books) and nomads ... create a bunch of hell hounds, then cast "just cause" and you'll have lots of money (that can be converted to mana), starting getting rangers , cast heroism/flameblade/eldrich weapon/immolation (if you have them)on the rangers, and you'll have a very strong force. Bring them with a strong melee hero or strong melee units if possible. If you get prayer, it could be a very easy game.
Last edited by zitro on Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kyrub
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Re: MOM 2.0 Upload

Post by kyrub » Fri May 15, 2009 10:26 pm

-------------------------------------------------
hi everybody
new to the forum, not new to the Mom
name's kyrub

-------------------------------------------------

An incredible LOT of work there, aureus, and I must say, that it's some very interesting reading in the documentation.
Klackons missile resistant, what a magnificent idea! On the other hand, I dislike more powerful heroes, because they were game-winners in Mom vanilla...
I guess I'll try a game or two sometimes next month and see a more complete image.

May I ask you just one thing, now:
I understand how most of the things you did were done, spells, acid blast, creature spells etc.,
but I wonder - since you say that AI is now a tougher enemy - what exactly did you do to make it better?

And how the AI can have swimming settlers, and you not ?

Aureus
Posts: 54
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Re: MOM 2.0 Upload

Post by Aureus » Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:36 am

An incredible LOT of work there, aureus, and I must say, that it's some very interesting reading in the documentation.
Klackons missile resistant, what a magnificent idea! On the other hand, I dislike more powerful heroes, because they were game-winners in Mom vanilla...
I guess I'll try a game or two sometimes next month and see a more complete image.
Thanks for the feedback. Which heroes were you referring to in particular? At first blush, not getting Malleus for a longtime should be immediate effect to make the game harder, not easier..
May I ask you just one thing, now:
I understand how most of the things you did were done, spells, acid blast, creature spells etc.,
but I wonder - since you say that AI is now a tougher enemy - what exactly did you do to make it better?
As I addressed elsewhere, I did nothing to change how the AI plays the game. By making (or attempting to make) the game more balanced, however, one indirect effect is to render the choices the AI makes less "suboptimal."

Think of it this way: Human players readily identify the units that are most cost-effective (ex. slingers, berserkers, horsebowmen, etc) and churn them out almost exclusively. Unlike a human player, the AI (as currently programmed) cannot exploit cost/benefit differences across units. As a result, the AI produced mixed forces/combined arms. So, when those cost/benefit differences between units have been ironed out, the AI should prove to be more difficult to defeat because it's allocation of resources is more efficient, and more comparable to human players.
And how the AI can have swimming settlers, and you not ?
All settlers (except klackon and draconian) for both human and computer players have swimming ability. But the AI will benefit far more by this ability because the hidden map won't pose as many strategic problems for them. Sorry if the wording was confusing.

kyrub
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 5:11 pm

Re: MOM 2.0 Upload

Post by kyrub » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:44 pm

First of all, I did not play one game with your MOM200. I will... in near future.
I'm basing my comments only on the fact I wanted to do a very similar kind of mod of the MOM.
Thanks for the feedback. Which heroes were you referring to in particular? At first blush, not getting Malleus for a longtime should be immediate effect to make the game harder, not easier..
a) You have adressed the inequalities by improving the weak heroes. In my eyes, the heroes are terribly overpowered in the mid-late game, one unit can literally win the game alone, which is boring - therefore I would do the opposite, I'd weaken the strong heroes (or even all heroes).
b) The wizards missile immune! That may be good against the shooting units - but otherwise overpowered. They were already the toasters. At least they shoud have been made really weak at close combat...
By making (or attempting to make) the game more balanced, however, one indirect effect is to render the choices the AI makes less "suboptimal."
Great concept, that is more or less what I wanted as well.
All settlers (except klackon and draconian) for both human and computer players have swimming ability.
I dislike the concept, although I understand the reasons.


Well, I know you're done with your MOM 2.0, but I'll still throw in a few ideas (I liked best) I had about my version, maybe you'll find them interesting:
- the ships can enter the rivers (+ the shipyards produce +1 food from fishing) - to make the ocean option more interesting
- the mountain chains are inaccessible to non-flying units / accessible only with a 'mountaineer' unit
- the lair cost of magical unit was cut to 2/3 to make the nodes harder and the rampaging monsters attacks more difficult to handle. Also the 2nd creatures at nodes are now more varied.
- the initial number of common spells reduced to make the choice harder
- I tried to add some flair to the different unit in different realms: for instance, the arch(angels) have +7 to hit, they never miss, all chaos creatures had +2 to hit (50 / 50 chance to hit / miss) et simile.
- the gnolls had 2 movement (they are hyenic creatures) to give them different taste
- the max combat rounds were cut from 50 to 20 to force you to go after the enemy (especially good for the sieges) - it also weakens some overpowered spells, mana drain, vortex etc.

Aureus
Posts: 54
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Re: MOM 2.0 Upload

Post by Aureus » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:43 pm

a) You have adressed the inequalities by improving the weak heroes. In my eyes, the heroes are terribly overpowered in the mid-late game, one unit can literally win the game alone, which is boring - therefore I would do the opposite, I'd weaken the strong heroes (or even all heroes).
Yes. Rather than weaken Mortu by taking away magic immunity (etc) I generally just built up other champions to make them comparable. But that was intentional: in the endgame the game should finish quickly and easily. The biggest challenge is not to defeat the AI when you are strong, but when you are weak (the early-mid game). Even if you played with no heroes, in the endgame beating the AI will always be easy just by virtue of having better spells, paladins, etc. and knowing how to use them effectively.

I've found the game to be incredibly challenging on large land mass (where typically you have 2 or 3 hostile neighbors). Short of the 11-book strategy, there is a lot of challenge -- I assure you. If you survive, outlast the AI's aggression, and manage to get the bigger heroes and power them up, you deserve to win. In fact, it is often the acquisition of good spells (like shadow demon, prayer, invisibility), elite experienced units, or lots of spell casting skill, that start tipping the balance in favor of the human player.. not champion heroes.
b) The wizards missile immune! That may be good against the shooting units - but otherwise overpowered. They were already the toasters. At least they shoud have been made really weak at close combat...
Casters have less hit points. The Sage, for instance, has but 4 hit points. The greater prominence of MI is also to reduce the power of slingers, horsebowmen, longbowmen, etc. who were unbalanced in the original game.
Well, I know you're done with your MOM 2.0, but I'll still throw in a few ideas (I liked best) I had about my version, maybe you'll find them interesting:
- the ships can enter the rivers (+ the shipyards produce +1 food from fishing) - to make the ocean option more interesting
- the mountain chains are inaccessible to non-flying units / accessible only with a 'mountaineer' unit
- the initial number of common spells reduced to make the choice harder
I'm not a programmer so I don't know how to do these things.
- the lair cost of magical unit was cut to 2/3 to make the nodes harder and the rampaging monsters attacks more difficult to handle. Also the 2nd creatures at nodes are now more varied.
Interesting idea. However, I've found the nodes to be very difficult as is.
- I tried to add some flair to the different unit in different realms: for instance, the arch(angels) have +7 to hit, they never miss, all chaos creatures had +2 to hit (50 / 50 chance to hit / miss) et simile.
I personally like the standard progression of power for each magic realm: +1 to hit for common/uncommon creatures, +2/+3 and above for rare and very rare. I did give demon lords +4 to hit, though. I think each realm has enough distinctive differences (chaos: firebreath, doom; death: life steal, death touch; etc.)
- the gnolls had 2 movement (they are hyenic creatures) to give them different taste
Following ad&d, I gave gnolls 2 hits per unit, making them appropriately buff. Gnolls are now pretty strong in the early game. According to that source, while they were hyena in origin, they stood tall like humans and were actually slower.
- the max combat rounds were cut from 50 to 20 to force you to go after the enemy (especially good for the sieges) - it also weakens some overpowered spells, mana drain, vortex etc.
However, it would also make it easier to run away from AI attacks. 20 turns is not a lot.

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