New Version tests

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New Version tests

Postby Xeander » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:03 pm

First I installed MOM back onto my system
then I patched to 1.31
then I stalled MOM IME
then I set LBX loctions

I tried this on
Win XP Pro SP3
Win XP Home Sp3
Win 2003 R2

not one installed worked

I found the problem is the Official patch to 1.31 doesn't place ALL the necessary LBX files
onto Harddrive .. I placed all into original game folder and it worked on all systems


Not all spells work , what is the point of LEARNING them if they don't work

FLOATING ISLAND will crash any game setup
as soon as it is cast

So will playing a more than 1 human setup game
if you open the towers between planes
If playing single human player
Start a game open a portal to other plane
then move on the other plane
then close the game
boom there it is the same access violation

in both cases the error message is the same

I suspect it is an error with SQL access to a modified entry in the database concerning terrain data

Learning the Spell of Mastery does NOT place it in the available to cast

Now for several issues I see with the present build

The original game, played under Win 3.1 with typical hardware of ATA 100 HD 4x CD Rom (4 Meg of RAM old style Dimm) and a proc usually Pentium 166 Mhz typical;
it offered this game in single player mode with Raiders and other Wizards ACTIVE in the game and it was a challenge.

This client has Raiders and other Wizards that appear to do absolutely nothing but take up space on the map
they never build cities, they never attack, and never cast spells.

And yet running the game on a far superior piece of hardware the game runs far slower in performance

The basic design of the project so far has a few major flaws.
Location of next unit in command stack : Scrolling is for 2D games single player mode with Missile or sprite type graphics
using a scroll to next unit in this application is totally wrong method.

Using a SQL database for combined data is absolutely the wrong method
First it assumes the HOST doesn't already have a SQL database setup o the machine
After install of the MOM IME client and server I had NO new program folder or ICONs as typical with an msi driven installer
instead I had 1 new program .. SQL database management, it modified my database and destroyed the entire PHPBB user data entries

The game does not allow for game state saves,
The server ends game for all players if one disconnects,
A typical game with only 6 books to learn, takes over 500 turns to reach Spell of Mastery and yet in a game with 3 or more players
there is always the threat it will end prematurely.

I have watched this project over the years and it is a valiant attempt to resurrect MOM as a multiplayer game

however trying to be fair yet remain truthful,
the basic design in the project has it doomed to never complete,

First individual game data should be written as a single file on the server host.
This is similar to the methods used by me under Novell 2.2 to produce the worlds first TRUE network chat
File writes can be associated to OPEN EXCLUSIVE preventing read or write operations until closed by the modifying client.
This prevents corruption of data and accidental reading of OLD data by a sharing client.

As long as the server remains running players should be able to
Leave game (game pauses)
Re enter game (client reloads data file)
and resume play

I understand the design taken is to prevent hacking of running game data
However, WHO CARES?
Yes a player could host a game
create a save log file
edit save log file
and reload game


Unless this project has the wild dream of becoming a P2P publish with a large community
the needless efforts to preserve a hard to hack game environment is just preventing its completion.

There is a reason that games like this project have a HOST player not a HOST application
the occasional crashes of the game point out the reasons to a debugger

Right now as this project stands,
You can play against other human players if:

you both start on the same plane
you both refrain from opening towers to other plane
and you can tolerate taking books and learning spells you can not use in the game.

Trade production DOES NOT work, the first and foremost tool for balancing income in multi-city multi-race conditions
Taking more than 2 types of books creates a problem with 3rd type showing up for research but not always appearing
in spellbook after learned. And they may suddenly appear later after learning some other spell but then crash the game when used.

The design of this game should be INDIVIDUAL control files

Raiders each race type needs separate file
Standard build orders can be created for
Wont pass 3k pop
Wont pass 10 k pop
Wont pass 15 pop
Will pass 15k pop

This first allows a mechanism to get raiders raiding
and eventual scenario editing when races have personalities

ROADs they present the same challenges as the towers and any other attempt
by this project design to modify the game terrain environment with present set up.

Why I see it as a long term indy project to "learn how to make a game"
not actually make a game

the changes in each version clearly pointing the author's learning
of why certain methods and techniques are NOT used by successful game clients

It is a good viewer of terrain rendering using old bmp style 8 bit color tiles it is far from a playable game client/server app.

It is far from anything as good as the original game and the original rates below 5 on a true measure of re-play ability scale.
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Re: New Version tests

Postby Implode » Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:24 am

Umm I'm not even going to try to answer every single point other than to say... it isn't finished yet? So of course half the spells don't work, trade goods doesn't work, etc. etc. etc. Its all on a very long to do list. So you have a few choices:

1) Wait patiently for me to find time to do more work on it so those things work
2) Offer to help
3) Do your own MoM rewrite
4) Shut up

One point I have to ask though... where did you get the insane idea that its doing anything with SQL?
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Re: New Version tests

Postby Xeander » Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:07 am

I have offered to help you about 2 years ago

and telling one of the original developers of the Original game to shut up

just amplifies my statements

I am 52 years old and yes I was one of the developers for the Original MOM

my nic of Hammerhands comes from those days
I used it on preinternet CIS
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Re: New Version tests

Postby Virm » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:05 am

Xeander, while I'm not going to dispute who you claim to be and I understand your frustration that this rewrite is not yet complete, that has absolutely no bearing on what the lead developer of this rewrite has said in answer to your first post.

It might be worth noting that this program is currently in a pre-release version (has not yet reached version 1.0) and is known to be an ongoing project. Complaining about it's incompleteness does nothing to improve on that condition. Likewise, your past condition of having been a MoM developer does not grant you additional privilege to harass the developers of this game regarding it's current status.
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Re: New Version tests

Postby Korenn » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:55 am

Xeander, even if you are one of the original developers, that doesn't make it ok to post like a grumpy, bitter troll.

This is not a professional team making a game, it's a hobby project. Saying it's 'Doomed to fail' and 'this is not making a game' is an insult, and then you balk when Implode rather politely tells you to please shut up? That's hypocracy at its best ;)

Several of the assumptions you made in your post are utterly wrong, and comparing the performance of the game to the original is a futile exercise.

If you are one of the original developers, who are you in the credits?
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Re: New Version tests

Postby Coyote » Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:00 am

I think I remember someone posting on the forum from 2 years ago with the hammerhand nickname.

Several things seem vaguely familiar... software engineer, older fellow, its been too long. I'll keep my thoughts to myself, as they're probably misremembered.

But yes I agree, the tone is uncalled for.

SQL is standard query language. The rest is Greek as I'm not a coder. :D
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Re: New Version tests

Postby Virm » Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:46 pm

As a side note regarding SQL and MoM-IME:

After significant testing on my own workstations and server, all of which are running some form of SQL service (primarily MS SQL and MySQL), there have been no effects whatsoever from running the installers from any past versions of this that I still have (which admittedly, I only kept .9.0 and on). Snapshots of the SQL running environments are identical between immediately before and after install of each version.

That said, either something is seriously wrong with your Windows Installer service for it to hose up your SQL services when running a random installer, or something/someone else happened to screw up your SQL server when you weren't paying attention to it and this was something convenient to blame it on.

On the other hand, if this game was only going to be played over a LAN or VLAN, than it would actually be quite reasonable to maintain the vast majority of the game data in an SQL database of some sort, as anything that doesn't alter the data can be handled as asynchronous queries (thus always returning the information as it was at the time of request), while data writes can be queued and handled by a single thread within the server process to prevent problems with simultaneous writes. So using SQL would really make perfect sense, and would be perfectly acceptable for use with a turn-based strategy game such as this.

However, as this is not my project and it is intended to be played over WAN, an SQL implementation may not be the best solution, and in any case is not currently used by this project.
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