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Master of Magic - Implode's Multiplayer Edition • View topic - MoM IME Expanded

MoM IME Expanded

Anything else to do with MoM IME

Re: MoM IME Expanded

Postby Tino Didriksen » Fri May 15, 2009 7:45 am

My point was that flanking would be easy because we already have facing in the game. Units in combat face in the direction they last moved or attacked. It is simple to use that data for flanking.

Not saying every unit should be flankable, but units could have a Flankable ability which would say "+X shields against attackers in their facing direction, -X shields against flanking units".

But definitely should think of all kind of new abilities. The earlier the ideas are noted, the more the engine can be customized to suit them.
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Re: MoM IME Expanded

Postby elliott20 » Sat May 16, 2009 8:12 am

well, you do have a point there. The game already handles sprite facing, so yeah, I guess from a crude implementation standpoint, you could just drop that in quick and dirty like. The question then becomes how is the facing information handled.

This, of course, means that the phalanx ability to hit hard in front gets a little wonky to work with. From a tactical stand point, this basically means that the player using them will always want at least 2 other units flanking the phalanx to give it maximum effectiveness. (As any cavalry unit can route around a unit fairly easily here)

I will tell you this much, having facing as an actual mechanic will introduce one particular important layer of play: formation. Your formation will be that much more important if your facing is an issue.
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Re: MoM IME Expanded

Postby Lucern » Sat May 16, 2009 8:24 am

My response to the above posts is...yes. Hell yes in fact lol. I'm open to adding new skills, barring two things. The first the recognition that you can muck up a game with a badly placed or implemented skill - it's never anyone's intention, but I have played mods where a single design decision had the effect of ruining the game for me. The second is that I, non-coder-extraordinaire, am limited to making skills from existing spell or skill effects until I improve my coding or call for some code support. Regardless, I'd like to implement new skills, placed well and providing some new gameplay. An example of one I've already proposed is that phalanxes might get 1 defense per figure in the unit, plus a small base amount, so that if they had 6 figures and the base was 2, they'd have 8 defense each. As they took casualties, they'd be closer and closer to a few amazons with unwieldy spears unable to ward off attacks nearly as well.

On flanking based on facing, I think it'd be an awesome ability to have if sparingly doled out. I'd like to have the option, and the game's handling of graphics is numbered 0-7 already (starting with 0 = straight up/backs to the 'camera'). 7 (the direction attacking units start with in battle) might be vulnerable on 2 (facing right) and 4 (facing down), and really vulnerable on 3 (opposite facing). I don't know for a fact that the actual game engine 'sees' those numbers though. For a phalanx, flanking would encourage lines of them, which would be great, and get the player to protect their flanks like any successful Hellenistic general did after Alexander. Of course, without at least a little AI addition, this would be yet another human advantage, although the AI does like to move in lines. There are undoubtedly other ways to achieve that special balance of vulnerability and power that phalanxes should represent, but it's nice to have options.

And damn Iluvalar, those are a lot of ideas I'd like to see in such a short space. It seems like they rely on a recognition of the game of certain abilities working on clusters of squares rather than one (Earth to mud is the only one that comes to mind that acts on an area rather than being unit-centered). That's a power I'd like to wield as a modder, and could be used, at first glance, for area-of-effect type lower powered attacks that are classic 'crowd control' type attacks, such as a grapeshot catapult. Those abilities practically beg for new support units that have them. For starters, can anyone fathom how possible an 'aura' as described would be? Like, something that projected to, say, one square all around a unit? I can't think of a similar existing ability or spell.

Lastly, I'll second, what does the Prima guide say about first striking/negate first striking, in precise terms?
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Re: MoM IME Expanded

Postby Tino Didriksen » Sat May 16, 2009 3:15 pm

Regarding First Strike and negation...the Guide says:

Units with First Strike who are attacking will do so before normal melee (same time as breath, gaze, thrown).
First Strike has no effect when defending.

Negate First Strike does precisely that and nothing else. Won't affect breath, gaze, or thrown. It will only prevent First Strike.
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Re: MoM IME Expanded

Postby elliott20 » Sun May 17, 2009 4:57 am

So, say two units are engaging in battle, one has first strike, while the other has negate first strike AND first strike.

logically from my stand point, I think what would happen is the system checks for the negate first strike, and proceeds with the negation when found, and then proceeds to give the advantage (the first hit) to the second unit. Is this correct? or is there some other kind of possible interpretation? (i.e. first strike and negate first strike all happens at the same time, which if not coded correctly, would basically someone with negate first strike and first strike will never go AFTER someone, but won't necessarily go first either)

hmm... might just be easier to make another special attack type like thrown weapon or something.
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Re: MoM IME Expanded

Postby Tino Didriksen » Sun May 17, 2009 7:45 am

If First Strike + Negate First Strike is attacking a unit with First Strike, he gets to go first since defending unit's cannot benefit from First Strike anyway. Negate First Strike has no relevance when attacking.

If First Strike is attacking a unit with Negate First Strike + First Strike, his First Strike will not work due to being negated.

Key here is that when defending, First Strike doesn't work anyway...none of breath, thrown, or gaze has any special significance when defending either. Only on the attack are those abilites worth anything.

So what is missing is a First Strike variant which would work when defending.
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Re: MoM IME Expanded

Postby elliott20 » Mon May 18, 2009 2:52 am

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Re: MoM IME Expanded

Postby Iluvalar » Fri May 22, 2009 2:49 am

What I meant about facing is : We might wish to change facing without moving wich is impossible right now and would add not only more code but also some tedious while in battle for not that much more game experience at the end.

@lucern : Remember the population calculation pattern ? Or the topic about the pattern of apparition of new units when the city is full ? Auras would work the same way. The fastest way is to remove bonus into the aura from where the unit start to move and add it where the unit end by doing such pattern. It's a bit of coding but it's quite feasible. Much easier I guess then to create a whole interface for facing.
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Re: MoM IME Expanded

Postby elliott20 » Fri May 22, 2009 5:21 am

hmm... that seems like a good way to do it. and from there you can just add on to create more "leadership" like abilities.
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Re: MoM IME Expanded

Postby Tino Didriksen » Fri May 22, 2009 9:43 am

Facing also changes when a unit attacks, so there is already code to do that. And the extra option would only be for units with the Flankable ability - magic users have extra buttons to click, so Flankable having their own button is right in line.

Auras are indeed even easier...they're simple area of effect with a radius.
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Re: MoM IME Expanded

Postby Lubricus » Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:00 pm

I don't think the AI will be able to handle flanking, or, rather, facing as a tactical option. Then again, it could be optional when you start a game, so you can play with flanking and enhanced tactics against other human players, but turn it off when playing solo, so as not to give yourself too much of an advantage.
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Re: MoM IME Expanded

Postby elliott20 » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 am

hmm... I'm still not quite convinced that adding flanking (and by that token, facing) as an actual in-game factor is such a good idea. I mean, sure, you can start doing some interesting stuff with the game, but then that means high mobility units are going to be just THAT much more powerful. With a unit with a 3 move, (which is basically any cavalry unit with endurance) you can very easily step around just about any unit next to you and hit their flank.

I don't know... it just changes the game far too much for me. Not just that, but when you offer the option to turn it on or off, you're basically making two separate games. These things are not good if we ever want to make the game something that can be played at a more competitive level.
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Re: MoM IME Expanded

Postby Lucern » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:37 am

I wanted to do a quick post to bring an authentic human post to the fore, and also to indicate what's probably obvious by now. My project's production has been on hold.

I've got 7 races comprising some 50 units, and plans for much more, including terrain types, more planes, with an absurd number of races and players possible, with more heroes, champions, and even wizards

Make no mistake, I'll resume production at the first sign of progress, because I love this game. And I still offer copious era-appropriate artwork in return for anyone who makes it possible for me to resume working. Hell, I'll make you a hero :D

Anyway, I'm still checking in daily. Godsspeed, Masters of Magic.
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Re: MoM IME Expanded

Postby Ole' Swifty » Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:18 pm

Keep up the good work elliot.


I would pay for a multiplayer version of MoM.


There is demand.

Anyone who can finish this great project will make quite a few people very happy, we just need some direction.
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Re: MoM IME Expanded

Postby Lubricus » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:03 am

Hi again, people.

This post is written in the faint hope that the IME project will rise from its ashes soon.

My Beemen are still hoping for a chance to play against the other races of the wonderful MoM world! :D
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