Still alive :)

Anything else to do with MoM IME
gregz
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Re: Still alive :)

Post by gregz » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:02 pm

Implode:

We're glad to see you back, but have you considered opening the code base?

Many of us have been checking back here periodically for years. If you had shared the code many years ago we might have had a working playable version years ago.

I don't mean you any disrespect, but you should be aware of the responsibility you assume creating a site/project like this. Thousands of people were very stoked over seeing this completed...about 5 years ago. When you stir up that kind of interest, and just disappear without even leaving a code base for the many fans that come here to work with it's emotionally irresponsible. :cry:

I realize you enjoy the challenge of the project, but why won't you open the source and let others work a fork of this project? If the version you finally end up completeing (assuming you ever do) is superior, then everyone will sing it's praises and play that version. What do you have to lose by sharing the code base? Do you realize how many people you have disappointed by not delivering so long ago and not even leaving code for us? There are pros lurking who might finish a working version in 3 months, why are you shouldering the entire burden yourself when there are so many motivated and talented individuals who could have taken the ball and ran with it?

MichaelZett
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Re: Still alive :)

Post by MichaelZett » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:46 pm

I'm very happy that you've continued to work on this project. As a Java (SE/EE) programmer I would join if you decide to take in more capacity :)

Nehan
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Re: Still alive :)

Post by Nehan » Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:32 am

Michael - there's another MoM remake currently being worked on on http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/forumdis ... ba7ba&f=56 - reMaster of Magic. There's a couple of guys working on it, and I'm sure your help will be useful!
Warsaw isn't a kind of a battle saw. It's the capital of Poland.

MichaelZett
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Re: Still alive :)

Post by MichaelZett » Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:49 pm

Thanks, but they work with C# and although that's not too different from Java, I'll choose the latter...

Virm
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Re: Still alive :)

Post by Virm » Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:14 pm

gregz wrote:I don't mean you any disrespect, but you should be aware of the responsibility you assume creating a site/project like this. Thousands of people were very stoked over seeing this completed...about 5 years ago. When you stir up that kind of interest, and just disappear without even leaving a code base for the many fans that come here to work with it's emotionally irresponsible. :cry:
...
Do you realize how many people you have disappointed by not delivering so long ago and not even leaving code for us? There are pros lurking who might finish a working version in 3 months, why are you shouldering the entire burden yourself when there are so many motivated and talented individuals who could have taken the ball and ran with it?
Gregz,

As one of the individuals who has spoken with Implode on this subject many times, I feel that you are being both inconsiderate and disrespectful (despite your statement of not meaning disrespect). It is not his responsibility if you found yourself enamoured with his project. Until and unless Implode actually makes a binding promise or contract with one of us, we are strictly fans who are eagerly awaiting whatever product may (or may not) eventually be produced.

This has been a pet project of Implode's for a very long time, and he therefore has exclusive rights and privelages to the code base. My understanding from Implode is that he is not opposed to receiving help from contributors, but he explicitly does NOT want spin-off forks of the project and he wishes to maintain control over the direction of the project in general. At present he is primarily concerned with getting the port ofthe code base at least mostly completed before granting access to anyone else to avoid confusion and to ensure consistancy. I wonder if you would have reconsidered posting your comment if you had PM'd Implode first and waited for his response.

For all who read this, please be aware that the above is strictly my present understanding of the situation with the project and, unless directly acknoledged by Implode, does not necessarily represent his present thoughts or feelings on the subject. I expect that if anything I have said is wildly off-base that Implode will likely correct me as he finds time to do so.

I do apologize for the venom that may be in this message, Gregz, but I found your post rather distateful and felt I could not remain silent. My apologies to all involved for any offense caused (I'm sure there will be some).

-Virm

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Implode
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Re: Still alive :)

Post by Implode » Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:44 pm

gregz wrote:We're glad to see you back, but have you considered opening the code base?
Of course I have, but how would this work? Just throw it out there to everyone? That would include people who are likely to do more damage than good. Believe me if the code was in a good stable state, it wouldn't be taking me so long to sort it out (and my mostly lack of enthusiasm to do so). If I thought I could open it out to everyone and that would magically get it finished, of course I would. So sure, give me your suggestions on this.

I did have a couple of guys help me in the past when the code was all in Delphi, but no disrepect to them for wanting to help, but it took me longer to explain to them what needed changing and how, than if I'd just made the changes myself in the first place.
gregz wrote:I don't mean you any disrespect, but you should be aware of the responsibility you assume creating a site/project like this.
You'd prefer I just took the site down? Sure I can do that too, if that would help.

gregz
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Re: Still alive :)

Post by gregz » Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:36 am

Virm wrote:
I do apologize for the venom that may be in this message, Gregz, but I found your post rather distateful and felt I could not remain silent. My apologies to all involved for any offense caused (I'm sure there will be some).

-Virm
No offense taken, although I completely disagree with you for the reasons I mentioned above. A private project is something you do with your ethernet cable unplugged. It's between you and your PC. This website, list of features, forums etc. has provoked great interest in thousands of passers-by over the years, and to stir up that much sentiment without at least delivering a codebase for fans to work with is narcissistic and irresponsible.
Implode wrote:
gregz wrote:We're glad to see you back, but have you considered opening the code base?
Of course I have, but how would this work? Just throw it out there to everyone? That would include people who are likely to do more damage than good. Believe me if the code was in a good stable state, it wouldn't be taking me so long to sort it out (and my mostly lack of enthusiasm to do so). If I thought I could open it out to everyone and that would magically get it finished, of course I would. So sure, give me your suggestions on this.

...

You'd prefer I just took the site down? Sure I can do that too, if that would help.
I worked at a software shop where one guy had written approximately 95% of the codebase for our product. There was literally zero documentation. He used variables that were up to 80 characters long describing what they stored, same with functions etc. Needless to say he had a very secure position for himself at the company because noone could figure out how his code worked.

I'm not saying he did that on purpose, he was a smart guy and he wasn't greedy etc., it's just how he worked. Based on how things are here I'm assuming (assuming) the situation is similar. There is one difference however.

Some programmers are simply brilliant beyond description. One of them might be browsing your forums some day. If you open the source, he could look at it without any barriers of permission or inconvenience. That special individual could take a glance at your code, figure it out, and release a 'patched' code-base back to you, and everyone else, which might then trivialize the process of closing whatever bugs, or features remain tackling. You've cited lack of personal enthusiasm and an unstable code-base, there's nothing wrong with that, so why not see if someone can help you out? It's a situation in which you have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. If said developer adds a feature you don't like, you can always remove it from the probably cleaner, more readable, and more stable code-base. I personally can't find any justifiable reason whatsoever for keeping the source locked up and out of sight as I assume you have no commercial interest in this project.

If you want to be petulant then sure, shut down the site. Or you could add another discussion block called 'Code Base' with a sticky to download links, and a discussion area for developer collaboration. Making those changes shouldn't take more than an afternoon.

That is the right thing to do.
Last edited by gregz on Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rev222
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Re: Still alive :)

Post by Rev222 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:50 am

Implode,

I'm sorry you have to deal with people who are as offensive, demanding, and petulant as gregz. I assure you that there are many of us who truly appreciate the work you are doing, and eagerly look forward to your succeeding in creating a multiplayer mod. Whether you decide to open the code up or not is entirely your decision. This is your work, your time, and your intellectual property. The fact that some people would rant simply because something you are contemplating as a gift to the community has not been delivered them in accordance with their fantasized fashion is childish and rude.

Keep up the good work Implode, I know there are many of us who were overjoyed to see that you had returned and are making progress (I know I check back frequently to see if there are any more updates). Don't let the fact that some people are rude get you down--there will always be detractors.

Sincerely,
Rev

Mountaineer
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Re: Still alive :)

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:08 pm

Hey Implode,
thanks so much for casting the "Spell of Return"! I stumbled upon this site a couple of years ago and checked back once in a while if the project is still ongoing. MoM is my alltime favourite game and I've never really stopped playing it during the last 15 (!) years. That's why I'm so happy to see the dedication you put in creating your Multiplayer version.
Just signed up to tell you this.
Greetings from Germany and keep up the good work!

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Implode
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Re: Still alive :)

Post by Implode » Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:01 pm

When I started back up I was just trying to finish off getting cities added to the map during game startup... that turned out to be way more involved than I thought, kept running into routines that I had to call that didn't exist yet, so had to convert + test those first, went through that at least 10 times before finally getting the thing finished. Last big piece to do before I go to work on converting the client to talk to the new Java server is getting the fog of war updates written... got quite far into that much more quickly than I expected, but its probably the biggest and most complicated part in all the code. Think I got all the terrain, building and unit updates done and just have spells and CAEs left to do.

I don't know when next I'll get a block a time to do it. Tends to be when I'm not very busy with work, which hasn't happened much lately. I'm busy with work, busy with family and xmas, busy with people needing my help on Perfect World, and somewhere in between all that try to find an odd 5 minutes here and there to work on MoM. So making progress here and there, but as for when I'll have something worth sharing I've no idea.

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Implode
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Re: Still alive :)

Post by Implode » Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:31 pm

I was away with no internet for a week around xmas so got quite a bit done on MoM IME. The massive routine for calculating fog of war changes is finally finished, that's what had held me up for ages, there really isn't much left of the startup code left to do. Then I'd move on to trying to get the Delphi client to talk to it.

That's the good news. The not so good news is due to a lot of factors from cost to the amount of spam email and spam forum registrations I get, and that progress on this project is obviously not as fast as I'd originally hoped, and that I have an awful lot of complications going on in RL right now, I've decided to let the roughseas.ca domain expire. That doesn't mean I'm abanonding work on MoM IME, I just don't want the bother of watching and administering (and paying for) the forum on top of it.

It'll be a few weeks before I can delete it, a while longer before it'll actually expire. After that I've made an e-mail address momime twirly symbol hotmail.ca so anyone who wishes to can reach me there. (Sorry for the obfusticated address, fed up of spam already so don't want to post this address as-is and provoke getting more!)

gregz
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Re: Still alive :)

Post by gregz » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:46 pm

sourceforge.net

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Tino Didriksen
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Re: Still alive :)

Post by Tino Didriksen » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:20 pm

Implode wrote:...that I have an awful lot of complications going on in RL right now, I've decided to let the roughseas.ca domain expire.
Why oh why will you not let us help?

I can provide free hosting on one of my servers, and there are several people willing to help moderate the forums, and there's http://sf.net and http://github.org to enable collaboration on the source itself...and so on so forth. You have people willing to help with the whole deal...let us?

Virm
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Re: Still alive :)

Post by Virm » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:05 am

Unless Implode dictates otherwise (or beats me to it), I will be sending a general notice sometime next week that the boards will be going offline.

It is my sincere hope that Implode will continue to work on this project or will release the existing code base to a managed repository in some fashion. (I prefer Github, but I'm likely biased in that regard.)

Implode, if there is anything any of us can do for you or the project, don't hesitate to let us know. We are all eager to do what we can to make this project reach completion.

-Virm

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Implode
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Re: Still alive :)

Post by Implode » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:59 pm

Tino Didriksen wrote:Why oh why will you not let us help?
I'll gladly let anyone help but tell me with what, and what you need me to do to enable you to do it - just general "I'll help" comments and posting links to stuff means I then have to spend ages researching what you're trying to get me to do. I spent a while looking at putting the Java code onto sourceforge since thats standard enough, until I realised how convulted the upload mechanism is and that it meant effectively giving up version control being on my own SVN server and using their CVS servers instead, and I'm not prepared to. If people want access to the code I'd rather just give them an account on my SVN server rather than having to go through the ordeal of re-hosting it somewhere else, but then how do I control patches people submit? If I get 30 mins a day to work on MoM then I want to be able to spend that time coding and not spending ages reviewing other people's commits to make sure they haven't done anything that majorly goes against the design, code that is unreadably formatted, code that breaks the unit tests, code that doesn't have unit tests, reading forums or reviewing posted bugs, answering emails, or so on. So if people want to help instead of just posting links and making generic "I'll help" comments, give me some real concrete ideas on how to address those issues.

Does github work dramatically differently from sourceforge, and do you have to pay for it?
Tino Didriksen wrote:there are several people willing to help moderate the forums
To date Virm is the only person who directly offered to help mod the forums and so I gave him admin rights to do so.

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