Master of Magic Re-revisited

Details about file formats, structure and contents in the original Master of Magic
Aureus
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:06 pm

Master of Magic Re-revisited

Post by Aureus »

Quite a few here were interested in the version of MOM that I run. Sorry I've been away for a month so I haven't gotten to it until now.

I've uploaded a .pdf of the changes I've made -- the link is below. It's like 70 pages long, but a lot of it is detail just for my own reference. I've played with this for a long time and I've found it to be fun and balanced. There are many changes, but at root the game is the same (just more fun!). Of particular interest might be the spells that I've added (Demon, Destruction, Hail Storm, Chill Touch, Contagion, Zombies, Acid Fog), notably changed (Star Fires, Black Channels, Ice Storm), deleted (Life Drain, Chaos Channels, Doom Mastery), as well as the overhaul of the races.

It's been a long time since I've played 1.31 so I may have lost objectivity. And of course, things have changed over time -- there have been about a dozen of my "versions" over the years as I've steadily made "improvements." As such, feel free to send me any suggestions or comments, as well as point out any typos/ambiguities I've made in the document. I'm always looking to improve what I play. I've modestly titled it MOM 2.0 :wink:

http://www.geocities.com/aureustgo/MOM2.0.pdf

You are welcome to use my copy of the game (or at least pending recommended changes) if it strikes your fancy. I'm not sure how many "special" files there will be but I'll zip them (into .rar format) and post them later. If you do use them, make sure to keep your 1.31 version backed up somewhere.

Aureus
ragnar-gd
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:31 pm

Re: Master of Magic Re-revisited

Post by ragnar-gd »

Aureus wrote:Quite a few here were interested in the version of MOM that I run. Sorry I've been away for a month so I haven't gotten to it until now.
You are welcome to use my copy of the game (or at least pending recommended changes) if it strikes your fancy. I'm not sure how many "special" files there will be but I'll zip them (into .rar format) and post them later. If you do use them, make sure to keep your 1.31 version backed up somewhere.
Aureus
Let's repeat: You use a modded version of original MoM?
Please answer slowly, as I'm an old man... :wink:
And if, who patched it to the version you are using, and how?
(I wandered through your threads, but didn't find the answer... forgive me, if I overlooked previously given answers - remember my age... :O)===
Cheers,
Ragnar-GD
Aureus
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:06 pm

Re: Master of Magic Re-revisited

Post by Aureus »

ragnar-gd wrote:
Aureus wrote:Quite a few here were interested in the version of MOM that I run. Sorry I've been away for a month so I haven't gotten to it until now.
You are welcome to use my copy of the game (or at least pending recommended changes) if it strikes your fancy. I'm not sure how many "special" files there will be but I'll zip them (into .rar format) and post them later. If you do use them, make sure to keep your 1.31 version backed up somewhere.
Aureus
Let's repeat: You use a modded version of original MoM?
Please answer slowly, as I'm an old man... :wink:
And if, who patched it to the version you are using, and how?
(I wandered through your threads, but didn't find the answer... forgive me, if I overlooked previously given answers - remember my age... :O)===
Cheers,
Ragnar-GD
It's an edited version of MOM 1.31 put together through hex editing. Off the top of my head, files that were changed are magic.exe, wizards, help, desc, itempow, itemmake, spelldat.. might be a few others. If you replace your 1.31 version with these files, the game will work with the changes.
ragnar-gd
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:31 pm

Re: Master of Magic Re-revisited

Post by ragnar-gd »

Aureus wrote:It's an edited version of MOM 1.31 put together through hex editing. Off the top of my head, files that were changed are magic.exe, wizards, help, desc, itempow, itemmake, spelldat.. might be a few others. If you replace your 1.31 version with these files, the game will work with the changes.
<*bowing down deeply*>

Someone who patched a game with a hex-editor...

You know that you belong to a dying race, threatened with extinction? :wink:

So, please, tell, where did you get your knowledge of the game from? Do you have documentation? Just in case I wanted to try out things... (as, well, developement of IME has stalled a bit lately...)
Aureus
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:06 pm

Re: Master of Magic Re-revisited

Post by Aureus »

There is a MOMhack program that will allow you to make many changes to the game through a GUI. I don't have this anymore, but I'm sure someone here can help you dig it up.

You can also find some of the hex editing info (as it pertains to what address means what) somewhere on the web, or even on this very site. I have my own material and so it's probably easier if you dig up the stuff online so you can get the .doc files or whatever format is out there. If you type in wizards.exe and hack on google you'll probably get some results.

Aureus
Nehan
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:06 am

Re: Master of Magic Re-revisited

Post by Nehan »

Hey Aureus, could you post the modded game somewhere? It'd be greatly appreciated :) .
Warsaw isn't a kind of a battle saw. It's the capital of Poland.
ragnar-gd
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:31 pm

Re: Master of Magic Re-revisited

Post by ragnar-gd »

Aureus wrote:There is a MOMhack program that will allow you to make many changes to the game through a GUI. I don't have this anymore, but I'm sure someone here can help you dig it up.

You can also find some of the hex editing info (as it pertains to what address means what) somewhere on the web, or even on this very site. I have my own material and so it's probably easier if you dig up the stuff online so you can get the .doc files or whatever format is out there. If you type in wizards.exe and hack on google you'll probably get some results.

Aureus
So, anyone: Do you have MOMHack or something?
Any other editor than momedit2.exe would be immensly helpful (all links in the complete FAQ are dead - google does not help this time)
zitro
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:05 am

Re: Master of Magic Re-revisited

Post by zitro »

From the pdf, most of the changes look great, I'll comment on a few I feel won't work at balancing things:

_Warship: of course, an attempt to get rid of the flying/invisible warships, but increasing their cost, giving them only 6 shots make them far too weak and pointless to build the maritime guild. You would rather use wyvern riders or griffins to help protect your galleys. I think they should have 8 shots, a bit more of melee, and maybe more defense.

_Races: Kudos generally, great balance and making myrrans more powerful make the 3-picks more worthy. I do not agree with:
1.High Men growing quickly tho, considering they were already a good race with pikemen/priests/magicians/paladins/being able to construct almost all.
2.Wyvern Riders seem even stronger than Griffins due to very high poison attacks and 12 melee, tho maybe my suggestion is slight, considering how weak orcs are before this unit. My suggestion is just 10melee, 10 poison.
3.Dark Elves' spearmen, now cheaper and with +1 to hit would be incredibly powerful. I think spearmen should cost as much as swordmen, due to having 8 figures.
4.Considering all the incredible buffs of the golem (+1 to hit, magic/missile/weapon immunities) and how useful dwarves already were, increasing their melee to 20 seems overkill. Maybe they should cost 240 gold/5upkeep, and melee around 15-18.

Creatures:
_Unicorns have a very high upkeep considering their low stats. +2 resistance to all is very nice tho (i think it used to be +1). Maybe increased their melee to 6?
_Yikes! Demon Lords are overkill, easily the best monster in the game with those stats (4 to hit?). Tho since Dark is sort of weak and relies on summons, maybe it should only have costs increased to about 1000/20.
_Werewolves seem too weak compared to the now cheaper Shadow Demons.
_Warbears and Sprites don't seem cheaper or stronger. I've felt the 0-to hit bears were pathetic, considering nature is the magic that supposedly is the strongest as summons (together with dark magic)


I didn't check much about items/heroes/spells ... regeneration seems a bit expensive tho ... I was thinking magic immunity as well, but in combat is now cheaper so I like the change actually ... I also like that invurnerability is a combat-only spell ... making archangels more useful. I also am a bit worried about the changing of 'star fires' but i'll have to play it to see.

As for these suggestions, maybe I'm pretty mistaken when I get to play the game.
Aureus
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:06 pm

Re: Master of Magic Re-revisited

Post by Aureus »

Hey thanks for the feedback. I didn't include my reasoning for most of the changes because the .pdf would be 200 pages long. In any case, here are my thoughts:
From the pdf, most of the changes look great, I'll comment on a few I feel won't work at balancing things:

_Warship: of course, an attempt to get rid of the flying/invisible warships, but increasing their cost, giving them only 6 shots make them far too weak and pointless to build the maritime guild. You would rather use wyvern riders or griffins to help protect your galleys. I think they should have 8 shots, a bit more of melee, and maybe more defense.
I rarely use water vessels in the game because I play large land mass. In any case, yeah, I wanted to reduce the effectiveness of the invis flying warship strategy at least a little bit. I don't think there's anything you can do to fully stop it without drastic changes. I added long range, so 6 rock shots are still pretty valuable as they are much more likely to hit. I think if you are inclined to buy ships, warships are still a very good deal based on how much punishment they can take and their attack potential.

I originally had them at 8 shots, maybe I should be boost them back up, but I'm a bit wary about doing so. Any thoughts?
_Races: Kudos generally, great balance and making myrrans more powerful make the 3-picks more worthy. I do not agree with:
1.High Men growing quickly tho, considering they were already a good race with pikemen/priests/magicians/paladins/being able to construct almost all.
Thanks for the compliments.

When you consider the changes to the other races, giving High Men a very slight boost isn't too out of line. Nomads can do almost everything High Men can do (pikemen, priests), and have a trade bonus, and better mid range units (Horsebowmen and Rangers). Paladins take forever to make. If you get that far in the game you've won anyways.
2.Wyvern Riders seem even stronger than Griffins due to very high poison attacks and 12 melee, tho maybe my suggestion is slight, considering how weak orcs are before this unit. My suggestion is just 10melee, 10 poison.
Orcs have absolutely no good midrange unit so I've found them them one of the hardest to play with large land mass (the most difficult setting). Poison is largely ineffective except against base units (spearmen, pikemen, etc). In the long run, flying FS/AP is a more valued ability. Right now I think they are comparable to Griffins, with a slight advantage to Wyverns. But I think its reasonable given all the other things in the favor of Nomads (Priests, Horsebowmen, etc). Besides, if you go by D&D, wyverns had one of the most potent poison attacks, so P12 seemed reasonable.
3.Dark Elves' spearmen, now cheaper and with +1 to hit would be incredibly powerful. I think spearmen should cost as much as swordmen, due to having 8 figures.
One of the major problems with Dark Elves is that their race advantage (range strikes) cannot be improved with Mithril or magic (like lionheart, etc), which is plentiful on Myrran. So Dark Elves needed a boost, and this makes them at least consistent with High Elves.
4.Considering all the incredible buffs of the golem (+1 to hit, magic/missile/weapon immunities) and how useful dwarves already were, increasing their melee to 20 seems overkill. Maybe they should cost 240 gold/5upkeep, and melee around 15-18.
Golems require another building than hammerhands, and are not easily upgraded by magic. For instance, compare the effect of lionheart on hammerhands versus Golems! So making golems in the base game was suboptimal. Maybe cutting them down to strength 18 and cost 240 is a good compromise. But hammerhands are so sweet that, based on my play and experience, golems really need to be good for you to want to make them.
Creatures:
_Unicorns have a very high upkeep considering their low stats. +2 resistance to all is very nice tho (i think it used to be +1). Maybe increased their melee to 6?
My thoughts were life magic doesn't need any advantages and I like that unicorn nodes are "takeable" with an average army. Your suggestion is a good one, though. I originally thought upgrading their defense was the way to go and then up their lair cost. And just FYI, in 1.31 RTA was +2 to everyone for unicorns, +1 for guardian spirits.
_Yikes! Demon Lords are overkill, easily the best monster in the game with those stats (4 to hit?). Tho since Dark is sort of weak and relies on summons, maybe it should only have costs increased to about 1000/20.
Demon Lords still lose out to Sky Drakes head-to-head (or they mutually eliminate each other). And Demon Lords are still susceptible to magical attacks, and they only move 2. Don't get me wrong -- they are very, very tough now. But not much more than death knights, which were a "weaker" summoned unit for Death magic. For me, the biggest advantage they now have is a devastating death touch ability that kills on contact both on range and melee at -3 to save. Still, I think the changes are warranted based on these observations as well as that death magic is generally a weaker magic realm.
_Werewolves seem too weak compared to the now cheaper Shadow Demons.
True, but you get werewolves much earlier and this has a profound effect on the game. Werewolves are incredibly useful in the mid-range part of the game because they regenerate and have weapon immunity. It's usually around this time where fending off the AI is most critical. Shadow demons are very nice, but you don't get them as quickly and by the time you do, dispel evil and holy word become much more problematic.

_
Warbears and Sprites don't seem cheaper or stronger. I've felt the 0-to hit bears were pathetic, considering nature is the magic that supposedly is the strongest as summons (together with dark magic)
Warbears have a slightly lowered casting cost. Sure they are sort of weak, but they are available early and can do a decent amount of punishment. They are also very useful in taking out nature nodes that have sprites in them.

I find sprites are very useful in combination with confusion spell (killing great wyrms, phantom beast nodes, etc). They also work well in groups for purposes of raiding fortresses. Flying is just one of those abilities that the AI does not know how to handle very well and the human player can really exploit it. So yeah, sprites are a marginal unit.. but for the above reasons any changes would just imbalance the game imo, so I left them as is.
zitro
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:05 am

Re: Master of Magic Re-revisited

Post by zitro »

As for warships, in terms of the 'flying/invisible' trick, I think rather than giving it 2 extra rocks, I have another idea, maybe you'd like it: make the warship more melee-based:

16 melee, 9 ranged (long range skill) 6 shield, 7 resistance, 30 hit points, 6 shots. Cost at least 200. It would really be a menace, galley protector, and annoy some weak flying/waterwalking units. It would of course wreck the transports (galleys) and they move quickly, so with wind mastery, you can really Rule the sea =) If given the flying spell, it would also be powerful, but so can a flying stag beetle or golem, or minotaur, etc...

I understand the point of High Men. First you need to survive, and High Men lacks good units to take out a close mage in the early/mid game. By then, wraights/gorgons/Shadow Demons/Nagas are probably more useful than paladins if you can handle the mana (and lets not talk about the big ones, which are now generally improved)

I do not know exactly how poison works, so wyverns are obviously not too overpowered then. (poison doesn't work like extra swords, right? and i forgot about poison immunity of the undead)

my idea regarding the dark elf spearman was that it probably is more useful in some situations than the more expensive swordman due to the 8-figure attack. However, I thought they had more shots. Then a swordman might be a bit better due to the large shield and 2 more melee and a halberdier obviously much better.

Yeah, for golems, 18 attack, 240 cost, 2 movement, and what it has would make one (if not the best) best units of the game. It balances out the problems with dwarves (hammerhands are too slow, you need to play with life or nature to move them around decently). Beforehand, the golem was kinda pathetic for a myrran race.

ohh, so it's the same? I thought the upkeep was initially 5, which was probably not even worth recruiting more than 1 anyways in each stack. I think how they originally were was pretty balanced.

I actually never played with demon lords, but I saw my father play. The statistics were low, but I noticed how good they can be. He had 2 of them and fought 2 sky drakes in a node, summoned 4 demons, which distracted the drakes and actually killed 1. Due to the speed of the drakes, the survivor attacked the demon lord twice and killed it. the remaining one wiht its demons killed the other. And of course, stealing life from both melee and ranged is extremely useful. It's just not so useful against dragons. I feel with all its improvements, a demon lord could kill a great drake because of the bad AI attacking demons instead.

my suggestion: drop hp to 25: still a fantastic creature, who should have its weaknesses (armor piercing magic and angels/archangels) since when combined with Death Knights, these Diablos can bring great support.

I forgot werewolves had weapon immunity! forget what I said =P

And as for sprite/warbears, it seems they have their uses.

Thanks for making skeletons with no upkeep. I can't imagine the possibilities. It's like having free cheap swordmans tho I think they do not reduce unrest. There are also units made much cheaper or stronger which was needed (chimeras/doombats/efreets/angels were pretty awful to me before)

any prediction when this mod would be available?
Aureus
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:06 pm

Re: Master of Magic Re-revisited

Post by Aureus »

I do not know exactly how poison works, so wyverns are obviously not too overpowered then. (poison doesn't work like extra swords, right? and i forgot about poison immunity of the undead)
Each strength of poison causes defender to resist or take 1 hit point in damage. So a unit with 8 or 9 resistance won't take a lot of damage from two P12 attacks (5 or 6 hearts). Something with resistance 4 or 5, obviously a lot more.

RE: warships
16 melee, 9 ranged (long range skill) 6 shield, 7 resistance, 30 hit points, 6 shots. Cost at least 200.
This is not noticeably different from I play with, except stronger melee. I'm not too sure I want to do that just yet.

RE: demon lords
He had 2 of them and fought 2 sky drakes in a node, summoned 4 demons, which distracted the drakes and actually killed 1.
I can't imagine the old demon lords doing anything to a sky drake. The demon lord could summon at most one lesser demon before the sky drake gets to it and then its lights out. As it stands now, demon lords are comparable with sky drakes, but they are still slightly inferior.
any prediction when this mod would be available?
It's available right now, but I was hoping to get some more feedback before I release it to the masses...
zitro
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:05 am

Re: Master of Magic Re-revisited

Post by zitro »

thanks for the explanation for poison, is that how it works for firebreath as well? these skills always confused me.

This is gonna be a LONG post but it's basically all the feedback I can give on how I feel each race and magic type is. Race-wise, I only called 2 races slightly unbalanced: much better than original master of magic which I would have called most races unbalanced. Magic wise, They seem quite improved and different. Some changes I'm not too fond of (Vertigo mostly), but for every change I don't like, there are like several I do like: It definitively surprised me how well balanced it seems to be.

Standard Units: It's so balanced! The halberdier 5melee, the cheaper shaman, the cheap bowman (what's it's upkeep?), swimming settlers sounded a bit weird, but if they help AI, then it's a creative solution and I like that they aren't ridiculously expensive for some races. galleys that damage more from ranged attacks was VERY needed, warships with 30hp is very nice maybe melee shouldn't increase as much as i previously suggested (11-13 instead?).

Races

Barbarians: Stronger than before. The noticeable benefits are supporting units: +2 rta and pathfinding so that berserkers can move 2 squares. Marauders also seem like great scouts. Overall, it fits the barbarian style of early expansion. Balanced.

Gnolls: Myrran-like quality of regular troops. Fast growth, fast and stronger wolf riders. Similar race to Barbarian, with even more emphasis on conquering cities quickly. No strong unit, but the other towns are for that. Balanced.

Halflings: New units are a great idea and good slinger support. That you increased the price of shaman shows how good you are at balancing every little thing. Excellent defenders, bad attackers. more food means more production or/and slingers. I can imagine that a summon-oriented mage would find it useful since they would leave slingers defending and attack with monsters. Balanced.

High Elves: thank you for making pegasai useful!! Very little changes, but it was already a strong race thanks to to-hit bonuses. Balanced.

High Men: balanced.

Klackons: Missile Immunity and +1 Production are excellent bonuses to my least favorite race. very bad water transport and no archers. Halberdiers seem like good early-units tho the race would be weak if it wasn't for the improved stag beetles. Balanced I think

Lizardmen: Wow, strong dragon turtles! Javelineers are unchanged but they were already among the best archers. The race is not that great, but great and cheap early units with water-walking gives a good headstart, so : balanced.

Nomads: my favorite race, now with better archers and better rangers. maaybe it's a bit stronger than the other races due to the cheaper fantastic stables, but not to the extent to call it unbalanced.

Orcs: such a crappy race, now it's on par with the others. faster growth and +1 attack help, cavalry didn't have first strike originally? Still crappy until you finally get your tremendous wyverns, but they are not great all-around due to poison-reliance. Balanced

Beastmen: cheap units, faster growth, tho can't build banks now. Centaurs needed improvement and got it. Manticores having ranged attacks was a nice change. Minotaurs brutal units if given endurance or flight. Balanced (for myrran)

Dark Elves: brutal ranged warriors with +1 to hit. Not expensive early units. outposts at least now are possible. Nightblades needing armorers was a nice touch. Nightmare's stats and planeshift is creative. Balanced.

draconians: Nice mages. non-mage units are pretty weak tho since airships have 4 rocks (but higher melee), and Doom Drakes seem to be equally vurnerable. Maybe improve those two units a bit since the mage units move by one. Not-so-balanced (IMO) unless you like to take advantage of the AI and leave flying units as defense and press done forever.

Dwarves: Swordmans are still decent no-upkeep units. Steam Cannon being cheaper helps. Golem, well I discussed that already. Balanced if the golem costs a bit more and has a bit less melee. +1 gold/production is a great bonus.

Trolls: Similar, late-units more balanced. War Mammoths are now incredibly strong, but if it weren't, trolls wouldn't be that great. Balanced.

Heroes: seems too complicated to read/review. There seems to be changes around Shuri to make her more normal and Torin.

Magic:
White: I don't understand the high upkeep of guardian spirits (3): they aren't great fighters, same for the unicorn, tho Angel/Archangel are on par with summons from other magic. I notice higher upkeeps on city enchantments which make sense, part from maybe heavenly light which I don't find too useful. Lionheart upkeep maybe could be (5-6), true sight seems too expensive as well. I like the higher cost of prayer and that invurnerability can only be cast in combat. Overall, pretty good and makes Life magic a bit more normal, but I feel a couple of upkeeps might be too high. Maybe make high prayer cost 70 mana instead?

Death: let me understand contagion, does it automatically kill any 4-8 figure unit with 2 or less hp? even warlocks? If so, maybe it could cost 35-40, due to death not being so much of a direct-damage type of magic. Chill Touch and Spectral Force are excellent spell ideas. I like that you got rid of some useless spells. Cloud of Shadow with 1 upkeep is a great idea. Cheaper darkness/terror balances things out. Summoning zombies is a great idea, Demons too, but I feel they should be rare, due to their weapon-immunity being too much of an advantage early on. I keep reading, this is all spot on. Creature-wise, Cheaper ghouls was a good idea, no upkeep skeletons is pretty awesome and would change the way we play. Shadow Demons maybe could cost 5 upkeep: they are very good units. Death Knights maybe 10, Demon lord maybe 20. I love the changes, I'll miss life-drain tho.

Chaos: Not the strongest magic, it seems that it's improved, apart from losing one of their best spells (chaos Channels) and armageddon being expensive. I don't understand the need for acid fog: it seems too similar to fireball. Maybe Chaos could use a spell that leaves an 3x3 or 5x5 square of lava and each unit that walks thru there takes damage (similar coding to firewall?). Great common/uncommon spell balances (tho wall of fire should maybe have its power doubled or its upkeep lowered), perfect creature balances. I love the changes. Creature-wise, I might suggest to improve gargoyles a bit like +1 hitpoint, but the lower cost makes it a bit more usable. Fire Giants are now pretty nice, Doom Bat/Chimeras more balanced, Chaos Spawn a nightmare that fortunately moves slowly. Efreet is awesome and Great Drake a bit powerful for its cost, but I notice the pattern of making the ultimate monster better in all magic types.

Nature: Not the strongest magic, and is luckily improved, despite pathfinding being expensive, which makes sense). I wouldn't miss Earth-to-Mud much (the AI can be annoying with it). I like the cheaper wall of stone/Nature's Eye: it gives emphasis to defense, which fits with Earth magic. Creature-wise, it's awesome and makes Nature competitive now. Making Colossus with 1movement was a cool idea for a unit that could defend a main city. I feel earth-elemental being cheaper would unbalance things a bit: it is a very powerful summon (25 melee, 30 hits, and now with many useful skills).

Sorcery: It's a great magic type. Here you improved/weakened various things. I agree with many, except a few. Creature Binding can turn the tide of combat (was it 100% chance?), invisibility's upkeep is as much as a demon lord, you can cast that spell during combat (as well as mass invisibility late in game). Magic immunity has insane upkeep, but I think it's intended so that you cast it during combat. My biggest complain in all spells is Vertigo. Me and my brother love Vertigo, giving a unit -2 to hit makes it very weak, plus it also takes out 1 defense. If a veteran griffin has 0-to-hit (30% change of damage), you leave it at (10% chance of damage, making your shields block the rest). It's a very powerful spell. I find it strange that you made it cost 40%. Creature wise, the units seem balanced and very fun to play.

items
: bah, that'll take me forever, I think I've already studied your pdf enough :)

These are of course only opinions, and I might even find them wrong myself considering the vast amount of strategies that could be used in this game as well as spell combos.
Last edited by zitro on Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Nehan
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:06 am

Re: Master of Magic Re-revisited

Post by Nehan »

thanks for the explanation for poison, is that how it works for firebreath as well? these skills always confused me.
no, fiery breath is just another attack, with normal to hit modifiers, defended with shields, that occurs before normal attacks (simultanously with thrown).

all the skills etc. are described thouroughly in the strategy guide. I can upload it if you wish.

as for the mod - I really like what you did with heroes. Some weak as hell (Theria and Valana, for example) are now at least choosable, Thorin isn't that uber, and the rest are balanced.
Warsaw isn't a kind of a battle saw. It's the capital of Poland.
CustodianV131
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:13 am

Re: Master of Magic Re-revisited

Post by CustodianV131 »

Would love to give this mod a go. Replaying MoM again atm and this would make things more interesting for sure! Can i download it somewhere?
Aureus
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:06 pm

Re: Master of Magic Re-revisited

Post by Aureus »

Barbarians: Stronger than before. The noticeable benefits are supporting units: +2 rta and pathfinding so that berserkers can move 2 squares. Marauders also seem like great scouts. Overall, it fits the barbarian style of early expansion. Balanced.


Thanks. Barbarians had good uses before. I just felt they needed a little more character. Also High Men, High Elves, and Halflings were just a little too strong by comparison.
Gnolls: Myrran-like quality of regular troops. Fast growth, fast and stronger wolf riders. Similar race to Barbarian, with even more emphasis on conquering cities quickly. No strong unit, but the other towns are for that. Balanced.
Also keep in mind they can put mithril to work. I think it's good the old game balanced races with "lots of buildings" against races with lots of "race bonuses." But gnolls were an example where Microprose just punished them too much. Besides, gnolls are supposed to be bad-asses.. much stronger than humans or even dwarves. Seemed odd Lizardmen had 2 hits per unit, yet gnolls did not.
Halflings: New units are a great idea and good slinger support. That you increased the price of shaman shows how good you are at balancing every little thing. Excellent defenders, bad attackers. more food means more production or/and slingers. I can imagine that a summon-oriented mage would find it useful since they would leave slingers defending and attack with monsters. Balanced.

High Elves: thank you for making pegasai useful!! Very little changes, but it was already a strong race thanks to to-hit bonuses. Balanced.

High Men: balanced.
Didn't feel I needed to do a lot here, other than to make halflings slightly less desirable (higher cost) and make a couple units more attractive (previously the halfling bowmen unit, and pegasi).
Klackons: Missile Immunity and +1 Production are excellent bonuses to my least favorite race. very bad water transport and no archers. Halberdiers seem like good early-units tho the race would be weak if it wasn't for the improved stag beetles. Balanced I think
From my play, this is still the hardest race to play (Orcs, a close second) just because they have no good mid-range unit.. although now klackon mithril halberdiers can be pretty useful! And the extra buildings make them more reasonable long-term. Like gnolls, they were just punished too severely for their racial bonuses (+2 defense, +1 resistance). The added unrest they produce in other cities is still a major drawback (slightly offset by reduced unrest in klackon cities).
Lizardmen: Wow, strong dragon turtles! Javelineers are unchanged but they were already among the best archers. The race is not that great, but great and cheap early units with water-walking gives a good headstart, so : balanced.
Just tweaked turtles because their dragon breath just seemed pathetic relative to what it really should be. A FB15 at elite seemed reasonable when a single chimera has 4.
Nomads: my favorite race, now with better archers and better rangers. maaybe it's a bit stronger than the other races due to the cheaper fantastic stables, but not to the extent to call it unbalanced.
Boosted rangers to make them a little more comparable to paladins. I think Nomads are one of the better races, but I don't think overly so. They still grow slow and horsebowmen have been taken down a notch.
Orcs: such a crappy race, now it's on par with the others. faster growth and +1 attack help, cavalry didn't have first strike originally? Still crappy until you finally get your tremendous wyverns, but they are not great all-around due to poison-reliance. Balanced
Racial bonuses added to make the race more in line with what its "supposed" to be. Orcs are a lot tougher than humans. Still, one of the hardest races to play for the reasons you mention.
draconians: Nice mages. non-mage units are pretty weak tho since airships have 4 rocks (but higher melee), and Doom Drakes seem to be equally vurnerable. Maybe improve those two units a bit since the mage units move by one. Not-so-balanced (IMO) unless you like to take advantage of the AI and leave flying units as defense and press done forever.
Yeah, flight (which can be heavily exploited by a good player) was the major reason why they appear weaker than some races. Also, a race that can churn out doom drakes with just a stable probably doesn't need that much help.
Dwarves: Swordmans are still decent no-upkeep units. Steam Cannon being cheaper helps. Golem, well I discussed that already. Balanced if the golem costs a bit more and has a bit less melee. +1 gold/production is a great bonus.
I'll take golems down to 18, cost 240. Seems reasonable. I still think they are balanced at 20, 200 though, when you compare them to hammerhands who are just awesome.
Trolls: Similar, late-units more balanced. War Mammoths are now incredibly strong, but if it weren't, trolls wouldn't be that great. Balanced.
Again, like dwarves, mid-range units for trolls are great and so it didn't make a lot of sense to go for higher units. Now War Mammoths are at least on par with Minotaurs and War Trolls -- they are ferocious in battle even with no enhancements.
Heroes: seems too complicated to read/review. There seems to be changes around Shuri to make her more normal and Torin.
Yeah Shuri was just ridiculously useful in the 1.31 game. Made her more fragile, but still one of the best.
Magic:
White: I don't understand the high upkeep of guardian spirits (3): they aren't great fighters, same for the unicorn, tho Angel/Archangel are on par with summons from other magic. I notice higher upkeeps on city enchantments which make sense, part from maybe heavenly light which I don't find too useful. Lionheart upkeep maybe could be (5-6), true sight seems too expensive as well. I like the higher cost of prayer and that invurnerability can only be cast in combat. Overall, pretty good and makes Life magic a bit more normal, but I feel a couple of upkeeps might be too high. Maybe make high prayer cost 70 mana instead?
Guardian spirit is upkeep 2, comparable with war bears, etc. 3 mana must be a typo. Life is so incredibly powerful the costs were just upped to compensate. Life also makes the AI "like" you more (in general), which is a huge benefit in and of itself.
Death: let me understand contagion, does it automatically kill any 4-8 figure unit with 2 or less hp? even warlocks? If so, maybe it could cost 35-40, due to death not being so much of a direct-damage type of magic.
Yes, anything that has less than 3 hp per figure is wiped out. So in a sense the spell does 2 to 16 points of automatic damage, depending on the target. When you compare it to something like Doombolt, which you get more quickly and costs 40, contagion seems reasonable. Maybe 35 mana... maybe.
Chill Touch and Spectral Force are excellent spell ideas. I like that you got rid of some useless spells. Cloud of Shadow with 1 upkeep is a great idea. Cheaper darkness/terror balances things out. Summoning zombies is a great idea, Demons too, but I feel they should be rare, due to their weapon-immunity being too much of an advantage early on. I keep reading, this is all spot on. Creature-wise, Cheaper ghouls was a good idea, no upkeep skeletons is pretty awesome and would change the way we play.
Thanks. Zombies is pretty powerful, but costs 25 mana. To put it in perspective, a single zombie can sometimes wipe out 3-4 normal defenders. Two phantom warrior spells typically take out 2, and a Fire Elemental 2-4. So it's a very good spell.
Shadow Demons maybe could cost 5 upkeep: they are very good units. Death Knights maybe 10, Demon lord maybe 20. I love the changes, I'll miss life-drain tho.
Well wraiths costs only 5 mana, as I recall, and they are superior units. Generally, I've taken the view that Death Magic is a low cost magic realm. They have at least 4 spells right off the bat that are useless to the human player, death magic inspires hatred in most AI more quickly, and the spells are generally less powerful than life.

I took out life drain because there was a bug with it, and the AI just used it way too much (and not in a constructive way).
Chaos: Not the strongest magic, it seems that it's improved, apart from losing one of their best spells (chaos Channels) and armageddon being expensive. I don't understand the need for acid fog: it seems too similar to fireball.
Acid Fog is something you can use at the start of the game, so in that sense it's a lot different from fireball. Also fireball is much more powerful than acid fog as your skill increases. Acid fog was meant as an early and mid-game combat spell, where chaos magic should excel but doesnt in the 1.31 version.
Maybe Chaos could use a spell that leaves an 3x3 or 5x5 square of lava and each unit that walks thru there takes damage (similar coding to firewall?).
I don't know how to do that :) There's only a limit to what kind of spells I can "make."
Great common/uncommon spell balances (tho wall of fire should maybe have its power doubled or its upkeep lowered), perfect creature balances. I love the changes. Creature-wise, I might suggest to improve gargoyles a bit like +1 hitpoint, but the lower cost makes it a bit more usable. Fire Giants are now pretty nice, Doom Bat/Chimeras more balanced, Chaos Spawn a nightmare that fortunately moves slowly. Efreet is awesome and Great Drake a bit powerful for its cost, but I notice the pattern of making the ultimate monster better in all magic types.
Gargoyles aren't that great, but I've lowered the cost to make them more cost-effective when you need a flying creature. They are also helpful in chaos nodes, obviously.
Nature: Not the strongest magic, and is luckily improved, despite pathfinding being expensive, which makes sense). I wouldn't miss Earth-to-Mud much (the AI can be annoying with it).
Got rid of Earth to Mud almost entirely because the AI was just annoying with it. Besides, it was a pretty lame spell all things considered.
I like the cheaper wall of stone/Nature's Eye: it gives emphasis to defense, which fits with Earth magic. Creature-wise, it's awesome and makes Nature competitive now. Making Colossus with 1movement was a cool idea for a unit that could defend a main city. I feel earth-elemental being cheaper would unbalance things a bit: it is a very powerful summon (25 melee, 30 hits, and now with many useful skills).
The added skills for Earth Elementals just made "sense". And it still costs 50 mana to summon them, and you don't get this spell until very late (typically). Nature was sort of Death-light in terms of cost: I wanted to make low-cost a characteristic of the magic realm. So that's why a lot of spell costs were brought down a tad.
Sorcery: It's a great magic type. Here you improved/weakened various things. I agree with many, except a few. Creature Binding can turn the tide of combat (was it 100% chance?), invisibility's upkeep is as much as a demon lord, you can cast that spell during combat (as well as mass invisibility late in game). Magic immunity has insane upkeep, but I think it's intended so that you cast it during combat.
Invisibility is just a super powerful ability. Anyone who's played the game knows how unbalanced that thing is against the AI, and why the Ninja is so useful. Sorcery is super powerful. I've just made it so they have a greater magic burden than others. The higher costs of some spells were offset by reductions elsewhere (Wind Mastery, Blur, Vertigo, Wind Walking). While magic immunity is expensive to maintain, it's cheaper in battle and now Djinn can cast it...

Creature Binding is -2 to save, if I recall correctly. I think what you are thinking about is the staff that gives you 4 charges of it, along with a -4 penalty. It's a very rare spell. It should be powerful. Besides, 50 mana isn't something to scoff at. I'm not sure if its much more powerful than Entangle (cost 50 mana), Disintegrate (50 mana) and Death Spell (50 mana), or even Wrack (40 mana). 55 mana is a weird price, and 60 mana seems like too much..

Also, there's a typo on Aura of Majesty I need to fix (it costs 500, not 250!).
My biggest complain in all spells is Vertigo. Me and my brother love Vertigo, giving a unit -2 to hit makes it very weak, plus it also takes out 1 defense. If a veteran griffin has 0-to-hit (30% change of damage), you leave it at (10% chance of damage, making your shields block the rest). It's a very powerful spell. I find it strange that you made it cost 40%.
I lowered vertigo for a few reasons. First, there is no "to save penalty". Second, consider that shatter, which one gets a lot sooner (albeit with more restrictions), does the same or worse (lowers attack to 1) and costs "only" 10. Black Sleep basically kills the creature outright with -2 to save, and costs 15 mana, which also you get a lot sooner. Third, sorcery has many other options. Why not just summon a phantom warrior for 10.. kills the standard unit for much lower cost. Perhaps most notably, why not use confusion with -4 to save??? Confusion is super powerful.

So Vertigo is useful, and it does have the advantage of being useful against other than standard units. But at 25 mana? Crazy. Maybe I'll adjust it to 12 mana.

Thanks for the feedback!
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