Shredding day wrote:That attack spell you replaced Subversion with feels like spellbook filler.
You certainly mean the Contagion spell. We really differ here, that is IMO horribly overpowered compared to any other direct_dmg spell in the game and it costs only 30 MP.
I think they could use a boost.. but I like the flavor they have now. They are actually a strong race.. but have some short-run issues. I will probably boost grow rates for them (again) to be the fastest in the game.
Shredding day wrote:That attack spell you replaced Subversion with feels like spellbook filler.
You certainly mean the Contagion spell. We really differ here, that is IMO horribly overpowered compared to any other direct_dmg spell in the game and it costs only 30 MP.
I meant that Chill Touch looks useless. Don't know about Contagion as I haven't used it in gameplay yet but it doesn't look that bad for a rare.
RE: Chill Touch. It cost only 12 points. A lot of spells you can dump 12 mana into (fire ball, lightning bolt, to name a couple) that will do this amount or less. This is probably most useful against a big creature to finish it off, or a multi-figure 1 hit point unit (like slingers). Of course, it's probably not so useful against a unit of horsebowmen. Automatic damage has it's uses..
RE: Contagion. I look at it this way. Death magic is generally weaker than all other realms. So to survive long enough to get to this spell is a bit of a trick. Moreover, Warp Lightning costs the same, is learned earlier, and will do far more damage on average than contagion (which does 2-16 points of damage). Also, consider there are a host of other spells that cost 40 mana that are far superior to contagion and many of which are learned sooner: mind storm, invulnerability, wrack, warp reality, doom bolt.
So this spell should certainly not be 40 mana. 35 is a possibility.. but my view was that 30 was about right given the disadvantages of death, and other comparable cost spells (Warp Lightning, Destruction, Petrify, Cracks Call, etc). If it gets people to play death magic, so be it.. but I highly doubt that happens. I don't think it is overpowered.
Warp Lightning costs the same, is learned earlier, and will do far more damage on average
"Far more" ? Did you count it? Take an elite halberdier unit (not an unlikely target in early midgame), Contagion wipes it out, but they have a solid chance to just survive Warp Lightning. And that is without any positive enchantments! Elite slingers are another chapter in my book. Hammerhands, lizardmen units... and any unit with Lionheart... bah. Both spells are quite comparable, they excell against different targets. Maybe Warp Lightning edges Contagion because it can hit the big monsters. But Contagion is quite equal to Doom bolt, just cheaper. While you try to hold to principles elsewhere, why is then the most power/cost effective direct damage spell a non-chaotic one? It is really original as a spell, but the game logic is gone. It should be more expensive than Chaos, just like the Ice bolt is a more expensive (and later) variant of Fire bolt.
(And you have just chosen the most unbalanced chaos spell, others are worse, then you throw in Cracks Call - 'this lake looks shallow compared to Baikal' type of argumentation. Petrify is useless because unreliable = cost/time ineffective, and that shows how Contagion IS powerful: it does automatical damage, it is perfectly reliable when you need it.)
If you want to generally help death magic, you should IMO lower all units/creatures resistance by 1 or even by 2. That would turn many useless spells in the game into real alternatives.
Contagion is useful against units with many figures. Warp lightning is effective against all units. In some cases, yeah, contagion is the better choice.. but Warp Lightning is typically the better spell, given how late in the game you typically get rare spells. Likewise with Doom Bolt. Contagion is highly situational.. in many cases it is only as powerful as Chill Touch! The other spells I list.. which are about the same price.. are not situational. Now maybe you are suggesting Warp Lightning 50 mana, Mind Storm should be 60 mana, and Doom Bolt should be 80 mana. But keeping some basic fundamentals in the game as given, Contagion at 30 fits the bill.
Listen, we can debate the balance of spells all day. Overall, I think the realms are balanced nicely (some great early, some great late, some a good mix). You do make some good points (even if they are perhaps based in theory, rather than in practice). Like I said, I think 35 is a reasonable cost.. And maybe that's a good compromise. Yes, 40 might even work. Heck, I'm sure if it was 70 mana, there would still be times where you'd want to cast it.
The bottom line is that it comes down to how much you want to reward death magic. My belief is that if you made contagion 0 mana, you'd still have the vast majority of players avoid death magic entirely because it's early spells are generally inferior to life (let alone sorcery) and worsens your relationship with AI player. I have played this game hundreds of times and I don't feel "oh, this spell is unbalanced.. let me choose death". Most games are over before one even gets Contagion (it's far down in the listing of rare spells).
Again, I appreciate the feedback. I'm curious what others think, based on their playing the new version.
Okay, Chill Touch is slightly useful after all. I played the game some again and used it against those awful Sprites. On the whole though, Skeletons, Weakness, Zombies and Dark Rituals were the only spells that seemed to matter in the early game.
After another parital game as non-11 book Death / Orcs, I'm convinced Orcs are clearly inferior to High Men. There's a massive gap between Halberdiers and anything better. The most difficult stage of the game to survive IMO occurs in the middle of that gap. Highmen get pikemen and priests at that time. After that gap is broken, superpowerful paladins and magicians enter the game. What's the benefit in playing Orcs in particular? I don't see it.
Thanks for all your work on this mod, Aureus! I was skeptical at first, but I'm enjoying the first 2.0 game I've played. I took the easy route and started off with eleven books of death. That strategy works as well as ever - a little bit better, actually, thanks to the boosts you gave death magic. I think it'd be difficult to lose with this classic setup. I wonder why you decided to balance spells and race but leave starting picks untouched. I'll have some more feedback as play more. Reading about the removal of chaos channels almost made me cry, but the improvements you made to chaos in general might make up for that. I'll also miss the invisible flying warship plus wind mastery combo. Flying invisible warships will always have a special place in my heart. I'll keep my copy of 1.31 one around to enjoy such things, but I plan on playing your version for a while.
My second game has been 9 sorcery, conjurer, and sorcery mastery on a small landmass. I stalled out after a burst of early expansion against neutral cities and thought the AI wizards would eat me for sure. They didn't. I began my assault on my closest neighbor by taking advantage of the interaction between confusion and city walls. Thus I captured various klackon cities, which are easier to control and more valuable than before. The production a mature hive generates boggles the mind. But I wonder if you've actually weakened the race by requiring so many buildings to get stag beetles. Because of this, I only had to deal with halberdiers during my first advance. Merging stag beetles are deadly, but I don't know if that makes up for the delay.
The only weirdness I've encountered has been Rjak repeatedly casting disjunction on my nagas. No, it doesn't make any sense, but that's what the message says. I've said wind mastery and detect magic in effect when it has happened. Neither one went away, so it seems that he was wasting his disjunction. I assume this is because you replaced nagas with wind mastery but missed something. By the way, I love the new nagas.
Now I've tried few games on large landmasses. First I attempt this following setup: 3 life, 2 nature, 1 sorcery, 1 chaos, nodemastery, alchemy, and warlord with gnolls. I remembered having success with gnollish hordes once or twice back in 1.31, so I figured it would be even easier with the 2.0 upgrades. Perhaps my skills have slipped, but Tlaloc quickly gained overwhelming advantage over me. The enhanced death magic made his casting skill deadly. I gave up once he started fielding big groups of longbowmen. I hoped just had bad luck so started again with the same picks. No dice. If anything, I did worse. The biggest problem seemed to be getting enough food to make the spearmen swarm viable. There weren't any nearby neutral cities in either case; that may be the key for gnoll victory.
A little frustrated, I went for something different: 6 chaos, channeler, chaos mastery, archmage, conjurer. I'd been meaning to use this in 1.31 but never got around to it. My strategy was simple: summon hell hounds nonstop. It works wonders. Because of channeler and conjurer, they cost almost nothing to maintain. I quickly developed full stacks and defeated one enemy. The second fell soon after. Then, by a marvelous stroke of luck, I discovered Theodores Liberator in some ruins, probably the best staff in the game. This allowed me to take some nodes and lairs a stack of dogs would have trouble with. The game effectively ended when I learned the efreet spell as treasure. Your upgrades have made them ridiculously powerful. I soon began kicking Sss'ra across Myrror. The other Myrran wizard, Jafar, held only a pair of cities for no discernible reason. I haven't finished the game yet, but it's a done deal. I'm amazing by the power of hell hounds. While I got an excellent starting position, I have trouble imagining this setup failing.
I wonder if you've made the efreet too strong. These guys can fling 40 points of chaos magic each battle and melee like champs. Why would I want to summon great drake?
That's a fair point. However, if you found Shadow Demons, Wraiths, Death Knights, Collosus, Behemoth (etc).. all spells that are lower in the spell book than Efreet.. you would have had the same success. I don't think Efreet are overpowered. And yes, I would prefer Great Drakes.. but the difference is far more marginal now [and this is represented by the spell book, with Great Drake needing not much more research than Efreet].
My personal view is that MOM games shouldn't last forever. If you get to a certain point in power, the game should end quickly. Getting Efreet is certainly one step to quickly end the game.
Aureus, I love your patch. A lot of the changes were in my mind as well.
But do you agree with me Klackons are still a little too underpowered on account of having no good mid-range unit and having no bowmen and shamans/priests? Edit: Not to mention no mid-range cavalry unit.
May I suggest you turn Halberdiers into a powerful new unit to tide over this weakness, and give spearmen and swordsmen a little extra something to help them with races like gnolls, halflings and orcs? I suggest calling this new unit "Klackon Soldiers". It'll fit in with the lore because they are a caste of Klackons that are meant to do the Klackon's fighting, like how ants have certain castes in a group are much more suited for fighting.
And on a seperate note, why call Barbarian's new shamans "witch doctors"? That doesn't really fit with the Norse and Teutonic background of Barbarians.