MOM 2.0 Upload

[kyrub]

I've found the game to be incredibly challenging on large land mass (where typically you have 2 or 3 hostile neighbors). Short of the 11-book strategy, there is a lot of challenge -- I assure you.

As you said, I'll have to try it (perhaps the simple halfling-white-alchemy, food-money-mana route, large mass / impo, then I'll see if its really as hard to stop the AIs as you say).
Basically, I should have tried before speaking out here.
But I did not meant to criticise your work, just to compare ideas. It's your mod, after all.

- the ships can enter the rivers (+ the shipyards produce +1 food from fishing) - to make the ocean option more interesting
- the mountain chains are inaccessible to non-flying units / accessible only with a 'mountaineer' unit

I'm not a programmer so I don't know how to do these things.

No programming necessary:
There is a self explaining terrain table at this page - http://eljay.homeunix.net/~eljay/mom/SaveGam.html.
You'll find the terrain entries in Terrain.lbx, if you change all rivers to allow sailing and repack into lbx, it works.
The mountain thing is more complicated, I don't remember how exactly I did it. Put FF in terrain. lbx and give the mountaineer units the carrying capacity, maybe?
Not sure, but I definitely found the landscape much more interesting, also the early expansion was challengin. Sometimes you needed to use a boat to move on your own continent. And flying units had more sense throughout the game. I even made some sort of 'mountain pass', passable mountain in that point where four chains are connected. Only dwarves were able to build roads on mountain. I liked this whole idea very much, but I have not been able to fully implement it.

- the initial number of common spells reduced to make the choice harder

There is a table in the Wizards.exe file that stores the numbers for common-uncommon-rare for every number of books (from 1....11) you choose. Starts at 0x2713e and goes to 0x27178. You may easily counter 11-book strategy here. And, as I said, less common spells will make an interesting strategical point - which one should be chosen instead of will be omitted.

And you could also make the tax steeper, to put more stress on the cities. Unrest is easy to take (unlike in CIV), it punishes you only economically, and it should be more present in the game (in my eyes). Tax / unrest rates are at 0x30340 in Wizards.exe.

I also knew how to swap Alchemy (1 pick) for Famous (2 picks) and Warlord (2 picks) for Myrran (3 picks), which I found both more adequate and fun to play with. Just don't remember where exactly it it. And I am not sure whether it si valid for the AI opponents.

Interesting idea. However, I've found the nodes to be very difficult as is.

I disagree, certain monster nodes / keeps are very simple to win. And the loot is too big. Both things are countered via monster_cost.

[Aureus]

Thanks for the advice. I don't think the saved game file info has much use, but the other files (allowing for general changes) will be interesting. I'll have to play around with that sometime. What suggestions are you thinking? I can reflect on them and adopt them into the 2.1 version whenever I get around to it.. At first blush, my main interests would be in tweaking the relationship between spell books and spells, as well as some of the special abilities (if possible).

[kyrub]

Here's an old draft of my suggestions.

http://rapidshare.com/files/243722421/alterMOM.pdf

Books...
I conceived quite a radical approach with books received: only a few books for each choice to leave a lot of strategic choice for the early research.

BOOKS - 1-2...-11 books...c_u_r spells =
0-0-1-2-3-01-02-03-11-22-111

(that was only a first draft)
So, a wizard with 7 books receives 2 uncommon spells, with 10 books 2com, 2 unc. I generally feel that 5-8 books are not very rewarding, so I gave them some good spell start. It's a matter of taste and testing, I'd say. Overall: it may sound like too few spells, but the idea is: you cannot win with it simply, you have to go all the way.
And your enemy has those uncommon spells as well, which makes the initial game more interesting and more varied.
11 books are now a special challenge, only one spell from each level + 40% discount. Still quite winnable.

BTW, you should check the section with AI wizards:

- edited starting profiles with better combos - white warlord, green/white alchemist, black conjurer, black/red archmage, blue/white artificer+runelord

This is a great way to alter the enemy setup: the AI uses the pre-made wizards (Oberic, Tlaloc etc.) as a base for their setup, so changing them into the more powerful combinations creates a new difficulty level. I have put two warlords in my games and could not stop them afterwards.

[Aureus]

Bogged down with work, but hopefully I'll be into this again in about a month or two.

In the interim, let me know what you think of 2.0 so I can tweak things if necessary. I love how it plays but I may be overlooking some things.

[Zephirus]

I see that aureus have some information about hexediting master of magic that we don´t.

I know, for instance, how to change several aspects of the game just changing some specific data on wizards.exe and spelldat.lbx, but i still don´t know how to change the heroes habilities, how to change the heroes spellbooks and so on.

If possible, can you post those technichal information here? I also have some ideias for a master of magic mod, but lack lots of information to implement this.

[Aureus]

Someone asked me questions, so I thought I'd put my answers here:

1 - For an example of one of your spell changes; Chill Touch, what does the red byte mean? [Ed. note: by red, the person was asking about the 05 in the bolded part below] You changed it so you must have an idea. I've read it COULD be the AI spell desirability for trade or value... or something like that. Let me know what you think it is and why you changed it the way you did.

Chill Touch (Spelldat.lbx)

C,H,I,L,L,_,T,O,U,C,H,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,05,00,04,05,04,FF,00,0C,00,50,00,20,00,02,60,10,00.

I don't know!

You're asking about the two flags: 05_04.

First, the second part. The 04 is consistent with other spells that do non-adjustable damage: c.f. star fires, fire storm, doom bolt, etc. [Also, for reference, a 16 value is consistent with instant combat spells c.f. fireball, firebolt, and so on. I don't know what effect these have on game play but I presume these flags will affect how the AI functions. So, in answer to your question I don't think it has an effect on trade value as the flag seems to group spells, not rank them.]

Now, the 05 is consistent with the flags for weakness, black sleep, life drain, but also lightning bolt, vertigo, star fires, etc. These are all attack spells. I'm guessing this has to do with informing the AI that this spell is an option to use to attack in battle. The other flag (04, above) might tell the AI what the outcome is likely to be.

Any other ideas? Again, I think these two flags are much more likely to do to with enabling the AI to make appropriate combat decisions, than anything else (trade value, etc).

2. - What's your reason behind the rule "Moutaineering ability removed from all 2 movement units" and which units did this effect?

I got rid of it b/c it seemed like (at least in my copy of the game) 2-movement creatures with mountaineering would consume 2 movement points for moving in the plains. That is, unless it was hills or mountains, all other movement would take 2 points. [This has to be a bug.. Foresters don't suffer this penalty]. I felt strongly that, for two movement creatures, moving through the plains at 1 point per move (but slowed in the mountains) was far more valuable than 1 point through the mountains (but slowed in the plains).

One impact of this, however, was that pathfinding is less likely to be obtained by stacking with a unit with forester, as only 1 move units still have mountaineering (dwarves), so you'd need an endurance spell to have an effective "group" pathfinding ability. To balance this, there are more ways to get pathfinding (striders, etc).

3. - What's your reason for making Spell Lock an overland spell only?

It didn't work well when cast during combat. Spell lock could be dispelled and you wouldn't know it was dispelled b/c the graphic still showed it was in effect. Again, my revision to the game was meant to take out virtually all of the bugs that I could.

4. - What's your reason for making Invulnerability a combat only spell?

Lower the power of the spell. Life was far too powerful and this was an effort to balance it out. This is how I look at it with the change: If you do well with other areas of the game and, through your experience, manage to survive until your spell skill gets developed, then you are rewarded by being able to use this great spell.

But simply finding mana and putting this on a unit or two disproportionately helped the player. I suppose I could have limited the spell in this way just by jacking up the upkeep. But, that didn't seem like the right thing to do. [Note, I did jack up upkeep with invisibility and flight, but that was largely because those spells can be used to heavily abuse the AI's weaknesses in combat.]

[Aureus]

I see that aureus have some information about hexediting master of magic that we don´t.

True, I probably have figured out a few extra things, but I'm far from a hexedit master. I do know another poster kyrub seems to have a great scoop on how to alter spell books and ranks, which I did not know. I need to look into this soon because I think 2.0 could be improved by altering the spells ranks a bit.

I know, for instance, how to change several aspects of the game just changing some specific data on wizards.exe and spelldat.lbx, but i still don´t know how to change the heroes habilities, how to change the heroes spellbooks and so on.

There's a document kicking around by Ken Dale online that can help with all of those things. He also has some tips that help with spelldat.lbx. Still, I don't know if anyone has put together anything more developed on how to edit spells. I have been able to create quite a few spells (something semi-novel) and have catalogued all the flags at length, so I've probably pushed the envelope a little further than what else is out there. Still, as my comments above show, I don't know exactly what all these flags are for.

If possible, can you post those technichal information here? I also have some ideias for a master of magic mod, but lack lots of information to implement this.

See above.

I have my notes on pen and paper, so I don't have the time to transcribe all of it. Still, the online document by Ken Dale should provide you with enough info to make a mod of your choice. DaveV (?) also has a lot of info out there.

[Tomalak]

Hi Aureus

Thanks for answering my questions in that first set. btw, have you or anyone else seen the AI cast Chill Touch or Contagion?

I never realized that Mountaineering only gave 1 movement on plains, nice catch! And since 2 movement creatures are (only?) Stone and Fire Giants which SHOULD cover a lot of ground, plus the fact Forester doesn't function like that... I agree, it must be a bug. I'm sure Mountaineering could easily be fixed by Kyrub someday. (but first MOO!)

Your reason for changes to Spell Lock and Invulnerability make sense, just like most of the other changes and bug work-arounds. You really put a lot of thought into this, it's a pleasure to play, thank you! If I come up with any improvement ideas, I'll let you know.

[Aureus]

Thanks for answering my questions in that first set. btw, have you or anyone else seen the AI cast Chill Touch or Contagion?

I don't remember to be honest. I know from experience that other spells I added -- destruction, acid fog -- are used by the AI, and for these I changed the two flags in the same manner I've done with Chill Touch and Contagion.

Again, I'm pretty sure the first two flags (at bytes 13 and 15) are to classify spells for AI use.

I will say, though, that:

Chill Touch (Spelldat.lbx)

C,H,I,L,L,_,T,O,U,C,H,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,05,00,04,05,04,FF,00,0C,00,50,00,20,00,02,60,10,00.

I do know what these last four flags (at bytes 20, 21, 22, and 23) mean.

Note 1 (Byte 20) Attack Strength

Indicates the level of the attack strength, subject to the modifications (if any) below. So 02 means a 2-point attack; 0f indicates it's a 15-point attack.

Table 1 (Byte 21) Immunity to Attack

01 Fire
02 Stoning
04 Missile
08 Illusion
10 Cold
20 Magic
40 Death
80 Poison

For instance, with Firebolt the entry is 21. Units with fire or magic immunity are not affected by this spell.

When it comes to automatic damage (such as doom bolt, chill touch, etc), I do not believe the immunity table (other than magic resistant) applies. That is, units with death immunity "should" be immune to Chill Touch (as its been classified as a death attack), but I don't believe it works that way in practice.

Table 2 (Byte 22) Special attack

01 Armor Piercing
02 First Strike
04 Poison
08 Life Steal
10 Automatic Damage
20 Destruction
40 Illusion
80 Stoning Touch

A value of 00 means that there is no special aspect to this form of attack.

Table 3 (Byte 23) Damage Modifier

01 ??
02 ??
04 ??
08 ??
10 Per figure
20 ??
40 ??
80 Dissipating Force (c.f. warp lightning)

The value 00 means that damage is inflicted per unit.

[Tomalak]

Just tested it out and the AI does indeed cast Chill Touch and Contagion but gives them EXTREMELY low casting priority compared to other spells like Weakness and Black Sleep etc. (and the AI really does LOVE Life Drain!)

Also you're correct, units with Death Immunity are NOT immune to Chill Touch and Contagion (even though you HAVE classified it as a death attack) Oh well, these two spells are great additions and not over-powered in the least, very situational use, which I like, nice design!

Thanks for the rest of your info.

[Aureus]

(and the AI really does LOVE Life Drain!)

Life Drain should not be in the 2.0 version. But I agree, in 1.31 the AI used it all the time (part of the reason why I got rid of it).

[kyrub]

The Ai will never use several spells, for instance Blur. Spell casting priority is hard-coded by spell number. Plus, there may be an extra effect of the spell cost: the higher the cost, the more often it is cast.
In fact, every special effect is hard coded by spell number. So, if you exchange two spells' position, you are risking enormous side-effects (sometimes they may be hard to notice at first).


BTW, Aureus, your mod is being discussed on gamespot forums:
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/mas ... pics;title

[Aureus]

Thanks for the update.

[Shredding Day]

Hi Aureus, I tried the mod out last week playing a few games as 4 Enemies / Hard / Normal Magic / Large Landmass with Orcs / sub-11 book Death Magic. On the whole I like what you tried to do. You know the intricacies of the game better than I ever will, but here are my reactions regardless:

Orcs still feel weak as a starter race even with the fast growth.

Death magic still seems weak. The in-battle zombie summon is great. That attack spell you replaced Subversion with feels like spellbook filler. Is there a right way to be playing Death that I don't know about?

Nodes were very difficult to take, especially when all I've got are skeletons and orcish halberdiers. Weakness, the spell I leaned on to grab neutral cities was useless in node combat.

Did you really need to make Settlers float across water? Yuck.

The AI's armies are a lot more intimidating. I lost my capital to it on my first game because I underestimated what the incoming units could do. The AI is still dumb as a post, bee-lining for certain cities even as it passes less protected outposts among other things. Decent strategic AI that engaged in diplomacy as in Master of Orion is what MoM really needs.

A freaking sprite one-shotted a hero of mine. +1 accuracy on those things is vicious.

Have you considered modding the wizard starting picks? Nerf 11 book, boost some of the wizard perks or write your own?

[Aureus]

Great comments! Great questions!

Orcs still feel weak as a starter race even with the fast growth.

A lot of this stems from Orcs not having a good mid-level unit (like pikemen, horsebowmen, etc), to help them out in the early-mid game. Orcs are cheap, grow fast, and are decent in combat. Orc Halberdiers, Cavalry and Shamans can overrun high men cities, nomads, and possibly barbarians and klackons, in the early game. So offensive moves against these is important. Overall, however, the race is best suited for long-term growth because they can build most buildings and have very good long-term units (magicians, wyvern riders). Getting to that point, however, can sometimes be a problem which what makes using Orcs difficult.

I think they could use a boost.. but I like the flavor they have now. They are actually a strong race.. but have some short-run issues. I will probably boost grow rates for them (again) to be the fastest in the game.

Death magic still seems weak. The in-battle zombie summon is great. That attack spell you replaced Subversion with feels like spellbook filler. Is there a right way to be playing Death that I don't know about?

Zombies replaced subversion so I think you're confused. Early on, death is a little tricky to use. Some of their best early spells are Zombies, Dark Rituals, Black Sleep (-2 save), and Mana Leak. Mana Leak, in particular, can be incredibly powerful when cleverly used. Ghouls and Skeletons can also compliment regular armies in an early game rush.

Nodes were very difficult to take, especially when all I've got are skeletons and orcish halberdiers. Weakness, the spell I leaned on to grab neutral cities was useless in node combat.

Nodes should be fairly difficult to take, regardless of what kind of magic or race you have. Orc Halberdiers, in volume, can actually dish out a lot of punishment: Nodes with War Bears and Sprites, Hell Hounds, Fire Elementals, should be takeable.

Did you really need to make Settlers float across water? Yuck.

This was done to make the AI better at playing the game. It's a minor quibble to me. Think of settlers as getting on to a boat and exploring.

Have you considered modding the wizard starting picks? Nerf 11 book, boost some of the wizard perks or write your own?

Yeah it's a good idea. I didn't know how to tweak this until recently. I'll do this whenever I revise some of 2.0 later this year (I hope).